The Cost of SETI (Warning: Big-ass graphic)

[LongTomH]

No one can accuse Phil Plait, of Bad Astronomy fame, of being a shrinking violet; he speaks his mind, and he's not afraid to kick ass and take names when needed. He's still furious over the shutdown of the Allen Telescope Array by the beancounters. His latest post: The Cost of SETI contains some valuable information, including this graphic on the cost of SETI vs the other things we spend money on, like Tomahawk cruise missiles, predator drones, Trident SLBM's, etc. Each little symbol represents the cost of one Allen Array radio telescope dish:



Phil's post links to some of his previous posts on like Neil Tyson on exploring space.

That post contains quotes from Dr. Tyson and some of the incredibly ignorant comments posted on the Parade website following Tyson's article. Phil then replies:

This person has it precisely wrong. We didn’t hope to find a help for cancer using astronomical imaging techniques. It just happened; a happy outcome. In fact, astronomical and medical imaging techniques are very similar; so similar that years ago I considered switching fields, knowing that my imaging knowledge would transfer easily. But anyway, this misses the point: we don’t fund these avenues because of serendipitous results; we fund them because it’s the right thing to do. Knowledge always benefits us. Always.

If you are laughing or ruefully shaking your head at the woeful pig-headery displayed by those three people, then consider this: those are real people with real (if utterly wrong) opinions. They are your co-workers, your neighbors, maybe even your relatives. Most people have no clue why we fund space exploration; in fairness most people probably don’t have an opinion about it. But I bet most people also think it’s very expensive (every single time something goes wrong with a NASA mission, the first thing reporters comment on is how much it cost, but they never seem to compare it to, say, the cost of a bridge in Alaska that goes nowhere.

This is why we need to speak up. People don’t get it. If you hear someone making these arguments, send them to Neil’s article, and tell them not to skim it, but to actually read it. Maybe we can get a few people at least to understand the real issues.

Phil's right, we need to at least try to educate our fellow citizens on the value of space exploration and SETI, starting with some of our fellow DU'ers. Sorry about that last comment; but, it's true.

[RoccoR5955]

1. This needs a kick. We spend precious little on stuff like this

Stuff that would help us learn about our universe. Heck, the NASA budget keeps getting cut every year, while defense spending is up.
What this country should do, is spend about a quarter of what it currently spends on its military, and bring back ALL the other spending levels to where they SHOULD be. We could be going to Mars in a few years, cure cancer, feed the world, and every citizen would have healthcare.

[calimary]

46. +1,000,000!

[napoleon_in_rags]

2. Great graphic. Change its name to YETI and put it on the black budget.

As soon as its a secret program to collect intelligence on extra-terrestrials, nobody will mess with it, promise. :)

[Odin2005]

3. K&R. I am so sick of the bashers.

[Blue Owl]

4. Why stop exploring the last great frontier?

What a horribly disproportionate amount of money is being spent on optional warfare -- thanks for the illustration...

[CrispyQ]

5. Outstanding graphic.

k&r

Followed some links from the article & ended up at a Carl Sagan video advocating SETI. Excellent.

[Johnny Noshoes]

6. The Seti Project

I have been running Seti@home on my PC since 1999. Now mind you not the same PC of course. In the vast universe there has to be others we can't be alone. We may hear from some other civilization or not but we have to at least try.

[provis99]

7. SETI is woo.

[Canuckistanian]

9. Right.

And the Pentagon budget is 100% reality?

[provis99]

10. at least there's some evidence the Pentagon exists, unlike aliens.

[Canuckistanian]

11. Yes, but is EVERY expenditure legitimate?

I'm perfectly willing to have money spent on SETI. I already donate 4 of my computer's time for the SETI@HOME project.

This is exploration, as much as the early seafarers in the 15th century. We may not find life, but at least we're looking.

And it's probably the cheapest exploration attempt mankind has ever made,

[RoccoR5955]

42. SETI is NOT Publicly funded.

So it's not part of the Federal or any other Public budget.
It's entirely privately funded.

[skepticscott]

16. There's never evidence of

anything... until there is. Try again.

[Angry Dragon]

40. Ye of little faith..............

[HillbillyBob]

50. Some pretty big IFs, If they are out there, and If they are Friendly

IF they are NOT friendly and see us as vermin, or lunch or just inconvenient occupiers of a planet they want(Earth) don't you think it wise to watch for them IF there are any other races out there.

Humans are so damned smug. Yes the odds are against us finding close by neighbors. Then again if they come from very far away. It is likely they would have tech as much beyond ours as we have compared to neolithic age humans.

[skepticscott]

15. Define "woo"

and prove that SETI qualifies.

[ElboRuum]

18. Not bloody likely. n/t.

[laconicsax]

22. No, it really isn't.

Its methods might not be ideal, but it's definitely not woo.

[kentauros]

27. You might want to take a look at this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=247x31886

They give some very good arguments for why it isn't "woo" or pseudoscience. I highly recommend reading it :)

[laconicsax]

33. *psst* They're post #29 on that thread.

[kentauros]

35. *psst* back

He's still making the same argument ;)

[DRoseDARs]

8. Damn, sorry. Unrecced by accident. Yeah, it's absurd what people think the costs are...

...versus what they ACTUALLY are, and what we get out of it. Utterly shameful that science isn't better funded than the pittance it gets now.

[northofdenali]

12. There's a more than one "bridge to nowhere" here.

A lot of the funds for that non-existent bridge went into dear Sarah's campaign! As well as Don Young, and it hurts my hands to type his name; what a prick.

I worked for NASA during the original moon-landing series, was on a friend's catamaran 1/2 mile from the VAB when the first nighttime moon shot launched. Dad was at Cape Canaveral and KSC till he died in the 80's and my brother and I had the privilege of meeting the "original 7". John Glenn was a jerk. Aldrin rocked.

SETI, along with many other space-oriented programs have provided this world with so much. Unfortunately, the astronauts have to come home to an organization that is underfunded, poorly run, and dismissed by way too many repukes. (Jeez, sounds like the Army/Navy/Air Force/Marines/Coast Guard......)

Yeah, I was there - literally in the viewing area with my very young daughter - when Challenger launched. Can you imagine riding into outer space in a truck built by the lowest bidder?

Your point is excellently made and the graphics are awesome. You are hugged and hugely K&R'd from this SF/Fantasy/Real Life NASA fan. :hug:

[ElboRuum]

17. One tangible benefit of SETI

Proved the feasibility and ultimately the success of massively parallel distributed computing in many fields of science and how interested people are in contributing to scientific efforts.

[northofdenali]

20. Yup. In 1973, I was using MASSIVE main frames....

that had to be kept at a certain temperature, way too cold for this Florida native! I used an MTST in high school. Without the space program and EVERY piece connected to it, including SETI, we wouldn't be doing this back-and-forth on a home computer almost affordable to anyone.

We also wouldn't have Tang, but that's a whole 'nother issue (I still hate the stuff).

Dad's job brought him here to Alaska in 1967, part of the BMEWS/DEW network that was in place. He was re-transferred (is that a word?) to Florida in 1972. I was lucky enough to see some major, awesome space program work both before and after we left that area. His clearance was high enough that we got in to the original "opening day" ceremonies at KSC. I think it was 1965.

He started out in a blockhouse at Cape Canaveral in about 1955. He was late picking me and my brother up from school one day because there was a huge alligator in the concrete "runway" they used when a shot was scheduled. Florida Fish & Game had to come "lasoo" the varmint before anyone could leave.

It's NEVER been blast-off. It's liftoff. (Not aimed at you, Elbo, just some folks young enough to have missed the real stuff and depend on newspapers or TV.....)

Oh. An IBM MTST was a very early precursor for home comps. It stands for Multiple-Tape Selectric Typewriter, and only honor students were allowed to train in the classes. Everything was stored on tape. Dumb for the school district, but I luckily qualified and went. Not to mention how many of my fellow dissidents I snuck in and gave access to...............:blush:

Of course, being a hippie, "Steal This Book" by Abbie Hoffman? I did. Just spoke with the spouse who informed me that at least 50 other folks read the copy once I was done with it and gave it to him. (Married well over 40 years..........:wtf::rofl:

Your point is well-noted and being saved by this aged grandmom of two!

[RoccoR5955]

43. Which is being used to do things like find a care for cancer. n/t

[LongTomH]

28. Thank you for this wonderful reply!

Right back atcha on the hug! :hug:

[northofdenali]

37. Nah. Not "wonderful", just baslic truth.

I don't lie to anyone, and that was a mystical and very magic time of my (at the time) young life.

Lies are the basics for tyrants. So, I don't lie. Besides that? Ivory soap tastes like shit if you said one of my mom's "bad words". Damn and shit were lowwwww on her list. The first "bad word" started with N. South Florida, 1959? Ivorly soap. I'll never forget that taste - and I only got it once from a neighbor kid who was, and still is, an Orthodox Jew.

I don't engineer my replies to anything but the OP, and I don't lie. You can DU mail me or email - NoD's been out there since 1994 at the same email and landline phone number.

BTW: :grouphug: ...................gotcha!!

[xocet]

13. K & R n/t

[ElboRuum]

14. As long as they can get the dish time, they can have my processor cycles for free.

[Beartracks]

19. Ignorance ain't really bliss.

"Knowledge always benefits us. Always."

Love Phil Plait.

--------------------------

[northofdenali]

21. No shit, Bear. The more I read, the more I know.

Knowledge is the most essential basis for a democracy. Without it, we are to stupid to question, challenge, and ASK our "leaders" :wtf:.

Strong post. Make it an OP and I will K&R it at first opportunity.

:hug:

edited to add: this is why repukes are so dedicated to destroying public education, even as bad as it is today.

[Beartracks]

32. Thanks, Denali!

I was reacting to the quote about knowledge, from the OP. But it reminded me of the notion that ignorance is bliss. If that were true, I think there'd be a lot more blissful Republicans!

I've got a Zazzle shop -- I should probably make a t-shirt!

:patriot:

P.S. I posted an OP here.


------------------------------------

[northofdenali]

34. Got it, going there, posting and K&R'ing.

It's kinda funny how few REAL "americans" are out there?? Ya know, the kind that believe in our written, signed and witnessed Constitution?

Just saw a replay (4-hour time difference) of Mr. President and Seth at the WHDC. We were both laughing so hard the cats got dumped on the floor (from our laps).

And yes, I still apologize to everyone from out of state for exporting Sarah. She is worse than toxic.

:hug:

[Beartracks]

53. Thanks!

I watched that video of the President's presentation, and realized how much of a genuine sense of humor he has. I also remember thinking how the tension looked reeeeally thick at Trump's table. :scared:

[DissedByBush]

23. I don't think we should spend money directly on SETI equipment

Of everything we could spend money on in space, it's the one least likely to give any kind of return.

However, we had a great program going with the Allen Telescope Array. It was doing regular radio astronomy, but the signal was split off so SETI could also do its processing of wherever the array happened to be pointed.

[bertman]

24. REC and kick. nt

[BrightKnight]

25. $2.5M would pay for a lot of teachers or school lunches.

SETI did a lot of good for distributed computing.

[mountainlion55]

26. Mr. S. Hawkings

said that when we do have contact with beings capable of extraterrestrial travel the odds are they won't be coming here for friendly reasons. I for one would like to have some kind of heads up when they come if I'm around. Hopefully human technology will be able to detect them. Hopefully they will be Vulcan's! :smoke:

[northofdenali]

30. Mr. Hawkings is my peronsal god.

Carl Sagan was good, but a TV personality before the science/technology got really kick-started in the early 1990's.

[lunasun]

29. Know this is about SETI> but why does everything except the Bush tax cuts have a graphic???

it would certainly open some eyes to that large loss of revenue ...literally!! 544.3 Billion!
DOD budget only thing bigger on there

[Pharaoh]

31. Wahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

That is funny as fuck!

[HillWilliam]

36. KnR - The equipment SETI uses is often

put to many other uses. Searching for other intelligent life is just part of the mission.

*Any* real knowledge gained about our universe is knowledge we didn't have before.

[spooked911]

38. we are certainly not alone

but we don't need SETI either-- just DISCLOSURE of what is already known by the govt

[shellgame26]

39. Good stuff

[LoZoccolo]

41. Here's another infographic of the evidence of extraterrestrial life that SETI has found.

[WillyT]

44. K & R !!!

:kick:

[Hubert Flottz]

45. K&R

[DirkGently]

47. Excellent.

[greiner3]

48. Imagine the funding possibilities;

Some big ass Hollywood type could fund the program for 10 years and negotiate some kind of movie deal rights for any positive. 'Contact' was great but that was supposition.

Or Trump; Imagine if he would fund this. He could then sell his hair secrets to the aliens and make another gazillion dollars.

[northamericancitizen]

49. K & R

[Sadena Meti]

51. Slight distortion because SETI doesn't use just ONE dish. They use dozens.

[LongTomH]

52. Update: Wired interview with SETI Institute's Jill Tarter

Still Searching: SETI Pioneer Jill Tarter Talks Shutdown, Aliens. Here are some quotes I consider the most important part of the interview:

Wired.com: How important is it to have continuous observations? If we’re targeting individual Kepler planets, the planets will still be there in 10 years.

Tarter: Sure, the planets will still be there. On the other hand, would it make a difference if you discovered a signal today, as opposed to waiting 10 years? I think it would, in getting people to recognize that their differences are small. That message is an important one.

Wired.com: What do you think would happen if we discovered a signal today?

Tarter: It would change everything overnight. SETI wouldn’t have any funding problems anymore. People would be eager to see if there was information in the signal. But even if it was only a cosmic dial tone, with no obviously or instantaneously available information, we’d still learn some very fundamental facts.

We’ll learn that technologies can survive a long time. Unless technological civilizations have long lifetimes, we’re never going to succeed in detecting a signal. We have to be close enough in three-dimensional space, and we also have to overlap in time. In the 10-billion-year history of our galaxy, if civilizations only last for 100 years, there’s not going to be any overlap. If we get a signal, it means that technologies, on average, can last a long time.

I’m not saying we’re going to get extraterrestrial salvation, by any means. But I am saying we’ll learn that it’s possible to survive our technological adolescence. That’s where we’re stuck right now, and there are a lot of indications that we won’t make it out of this. A signal would make all the difference, would show that it’s possible. That somebody else did it.

That last paragraph deserves rereading. This is the same thing Carl Sagan was saying 30 years ago, only the prospects for our making it out of our "technological adolescence" may be considerably darker now.