My son's teacher made him do Bible research at a public school -WTF

[SW FL Dem]

They had to answer several questions on the play Helen Keller, the last two questions were "What is the parable of the lost lamb?" and "What is the original sin?" He specifically told the kids that the answers weren't in the book. These questions constituted 20% of the test. We don't even have a bible in the house. We did a search on Google and got enough of an idea to answer the questions. When my son turned in his paper today, the teacher made an example of him and criticized him for not citing the Bible chapter and verse for each answer. I am so pissed.

[Der Blaue Engel]

1. Report him to the school board!

[LiberalinNC]

34. Not only that, I'd report it to local newspapers, and local news!

This needs to be stopped immediately!

I'd also contact the principal!

[Liberal Veteran]

2. Lawsuit.....

At the very least, I'd get a copy of that paper and drag his ass before the school board to explain his teaching method.

[jackster]

3. and hopefully you will be going to

1. the teacher
2. the principal
3. the school board

don't stand by and let it happen!

[fight4my3sons]

13. I agree

I am a teacher and I could not imagine one of my colleagues putting questions like that on a test. I know that I would not. I agree with jackster, go to the teacher, then the principal, then the school board. Who knows how many times he has given this test. It makes me so angry to hear the way your son was made an example in front of the class. I can't imagine how upset you must be. I would be outraged if this happened to one of my kids.

[msongs]

4. visit the principal and ask for an apology in front of the class and proof

of relevance to the play.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/clark2008.htm

[FreedomAngel82]

97. Exactly

I'd forget the rest and go straight to the principle and tell him/her what happened and threaten to go to the ACLU.

[iconoclastic cat]

5. I agree with those above: Take this up the chain and get this ass fired.

Make a big, huge stink about it, too. Call the ACLU.

[mdmc]

6. What kind of kid are you raising that can't quote the bible by heart!

(runs from the room)
.
.
.
.
.

[MountainLaurel]

7. Out of curiosity

What grade is this, and where are you located?

[rzemanfl]

8. How far SW? I'd be interested in attending the school board

meeting.

[Speck Tater]

9. As a devote semi-athiest Buddhist...

I have to wonder if you would have been outraged had your son been required to research something in Shakespeare? Whether one believes in the Bible or not (and I most certainly do NOT) it is still a part of our cultural heritage, and I don't see any harm in knowing something about our cultural heritage.

[GraysonDave]

15. The only rational response thus far

It is impossible to understand the world we live in without knowledge of the bible.

[Richard Steele]

17. Bullshit, Dave. Utter bullshit.

"It is impossible to understand the world we live in without knowledge of the bible"

Bullshit. Simply not true. Incorrect. Not right at all.

So entirely wrong that it requires no response, no rebuttal.

Bullshit.

[GraysonDave]

28. I get the impression you disagree - LOL

So much of what is happening in the world today is based on religon that I think there is no way to understand people's motivations without an understanding of what they're being taught at church.

Just my opinion. Since you didn't rebut, I don't really know why you disagree.

[DistressedAmerican]

33. I Certainly Think I Understand Your Motives...

:freak:

[Walt Starr]

43. I think I understand a lot of motives on this thread

I'm right with you!

[Richard Steele]

53. Disagree? Whatever gave you that idea? (lol)

Frankly, reading the bible (or any other "holy" book)
will not give us any insights into people's motivations.

Why? Because the book is NOT the motivation.
The "motivation" is human nature.
People do the things they do because that's what people do.
And they keep repeating the same history over and over,
with only slight variations.

"Holy Books" might occasionally motivate an individual,
but GROUPS are motivated by human nature,
and use books merely as JUSTIFICATION for the things they
already wished to do.

The BOOK is irrelevant to the process;
if all bibles and korans disappeared tomorrow,
the religious fanatics of the world would not miss a beat.
They would change a few words in a few speeches,
and proceed apace.

[GraysonDave]

61. I understand what you're saying

Probably some truth to it regarding the justification part.

However, I think I've met enough people who are gullible enough to be led by what they read in the bible that it is the REASON for their actions, not the JUSTIFICATION.

Thanks for the response.

[Ladyhawk]

112. Right. "Original Sin" is a fundamentalist concept derived from the bible.

The myth of Adam and Eve hints at the fall of man, but only religious dogma then makes it necessary to have a holy human sacrifice to redeem man from his sins.

So, when this teacher asked the students to define the original sin, he / she was not teaching about the bible, but about a certain teaching derived from an erroneous reading of the bible. So, no, this doesn't qualify as "teaching the bible," at least from a scholarly perspective.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

143. Um...

Original Sin as a theological concept predates Fundamentalism by the best part of two thousand years. The central thesis of Christian theology of virtually all denominations as I understand it (although I admit I'm not a Christian) is that man was created sinless but fell, and Christ's sacrifice (the atonement) was required because of that.

Original sin is, if not the single most important concept in the bible, almost certainly in the top three. It's got absolutely not a specifically fundamentalist reading - I think (although I'm not sure) that it's actually a more major part of Catholic theology than it is of Fundamentalist.

[theHandpuppet]

55. Then perhaps an overview of Islam should be required reading...

... for any class on current events. And make sure little Johnnie and Janie can quote the Koran. I'm sure the school board would agree.

[GraysonDave]

63. Actually, I DO believe that it should be taught

I'm not in favor of indoctrinating kids into a religon, and I'm afraid some may have interpreted my comment that way.

I think religon should be taught as subject matter to help foster understanding.

[Jersey Ginny]

67. Yes, a class on comparative religion would be great

I'd love to see all these wack job Robertson zombies if their kids were taught about Islam and Buddism!

[Jersey Ginny]

69. God Bless America was the 1st song my kindergarten kids learned

I live in a liberal town. I live in a town that banned the playing of instrumental christmas songs. I couldn't believe it when my kids were singing this song last week. I'm not going to complain about this one. I think that there is no avoiding the indoctrination. There is a lot more room to seperate church and state.

[FreedomAngel82]

101. Why doesn't someone try that?

I think that would end this debate pretty quickly on religion. I think if someone wants to have religion in school bring up the first amendment they should then be challenged about that and have brought up all the holy books such as the Masonic Bible and the Santanic Bible. Our first president, George Washington, was sworn in on the Masonic Bible and so was Bush1 and Bush2.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

144. I'm not sure about "comparative".

I think it's impossible to understand any European or American history, literature or philosophy of the last fifteen hundred years without a decent working knowledge of Christianity, and that it's impossibly to understand another culture without understanding its religious influences, but I think the teaching should be of the form

"Followers of this religion believe that this, this and this are true; there was a schism in 1700 between two groups on account of this, with this one winning, this person was a famous writer who tackled this issue associated with it, there are this many of them living in these countries, their practices and culture are like this" and so on.

I don't think the relative validity or otherwise of the ideas should be taught in school; it's a) more controversial, and b) less useful or interesting, in my view. Teaching should focus on making sure the children know about the religion and how it has influenced people.

[FreedomAngel82]

100. Since I someday want to be a parent

when I have kids I want to be the one to teach them religion if any at all. I am a Christian and even in my own faith there is various types of Christianity. I want to be the one to study the faith with my child (or children) and not someone else. And I think other parents out there would want to teach their kids things dealing with religion or lack thereof. That's why there is the first amendment.

[FreedomAngel82]

99. Don't forget also

the Santanic Bible and the Masonic Bible. I'm sure they'd love that as well eh?

[TankLV]

94. I would only agree that it is similar to reading Mein Kampf to get an

understanding of such spew and how it screws up the world.

But it has NO place in PUBLIC.

Self education, OK, but to force someone to do it and then ridicule them? Shameless.

[Dark]

150. Three major religions are based, at least in part, on that book.

A general understanding of it may not be that bad of an idea. Might lead to more tolerance of Muslims if Christians realized that they had something in common with them. . .

[acmejack]

23. What a ridiculous assertion!

Care to explain why you believe that to be the case & perhaps give us some idea of how much knowledge of the bible one must have?

[GraysonDave]

36. A significant portion of world events is influenced by religon

Without an understanding of why some people believe what they believe, I don't think one can fully interpret world events.

There is no one level of understanding sufficient for all situations.

[Yupster]

80. I wasn't even thinking of religion Grayson

I was thinking more of cultural knowledge.

The prodigal son, the lost sheep, as old as Methuselah, my brother's keeper, Sodom and Gomorrah, The writing on the wall, and walking on water are all cultural references that come up again and again in America and I think people should have an understanding of them and where they came from just for literacy's sake.

The same way as to be or not to be, a pound of flesh, or the road to glory leads but to the grave are references that a literate person should know in America.

I don't even think that has anything to do with religion. It's just cultural points that people should know about to be literate.

In other words when the announcer said the Phillies saw the writing on the wall when Carlton went out with an injury, it wouldn't hurt to know what the heck he's talking about.

[knight_of_the_star]

93. In response

Most of those references can be determined for meaning by context of usage, I don't know the exact meaning or source of any of the above expressions yet I know more or less the gist of it. You don't need to know book, chapter, and verse of the Bible anymore than you have to know play, act, and line of Shakespeare (who in my opinion was a more divinely inspired writer anyway) to understand references to his plays. Context clues are often enough for most even semi-intelligent people, and expressions that speak to common mores and societal customs don't need to be sourced to be understood and comprehended.

As an aside, I don't see WHY a child should be graded down for not knowing the exact verse and chapter of biblical parables when they got the story right anyway, ESPECIALLY in a public school where such endorsements of religion are simply out of the question. I would also like to know the relevance of requiring that in the first place in a test on the play Hellen Keller. Last time I checked, neither concept entered into THAT play.

[TankLV]

95. Actually, I can't disagree with you there.

Very well said.

But you KNOW the motives of that "teacher/preacher" are not pure by a long shot - they knew EXACTLY what they were doing, and it wasn't in the interest in getting a general knowledge of something. I would bet my life that that "teacher/preacher" was underhandedly trying to get religion - HIS religion - taught in HIS classroom. That is wrong.

[FreedomAngel82]

103. Exactly

When I was in high school we had a class that we could take called Bible History. Nobody was told to take it or failed if they didn't. In the class at the beginning before anything happened the teacher said by law, since I was in a public school, she couldn't preach to us. So if this person is trying to preach to a child it's illegal.

[DistressedAmerican]

32. What A Crock! Why Are You Here? Don't You Have Some Commandments To Post?

If people want to learn about the bible, there is a time and place.

This was clearly not it.

What the hell do those questions have to do with a test on Hellen Keller? Answer that!

[GraysonDave]

39. Can't answer that

I don't know what relevance it might have to Helen Keller.

[DistressedAmerican]

50. Yet You Defend It As Appropriate? Even Needed?

:wtf:

[GraysonDave]

64. Maybe not in this specific case

I was talking about teaching about religon in school generally and not specifically related to Helen Keller.

I haven't studied the life of Helen Keller in nearly 40 years; perhaps there is no relevance at all.

[DistressedAmerican]

76. Fair Enough Then. Got No Issue With That!

:hi:

[shadowknows69]

Ill give you a hint

ZERO relevance. Hellen Keller was a real person. The bible is a storybook.

[FreedomAngel82]

104. I think what people

in general don't get on the "religious right" is just that. I am currently in a debate now with two/three people about whether or not we're a Christian nation and/or founded as such one (heh!) and I always ask them: what are you going to tell an athiest? I also bring up freewill and how God loved me enough to give it to me so why don't they give it to me? I get so frustrated though sometimes. *sigh*

[Donald Ian Rankin]

145. Nonsense.

I don't know the play, but if either Keller or the author read and was influenced by the Bible then it could well be very relevant indeed.

[Bluebear]

38. THANK YOU!

[GraysonDave]

44. LOL, I think I'm being mocked

I don't post here enough to be sure. LOL.

[theHandpuppet]

52. So I guess the billions of other peoples in the world we live in...

... who can't quote the Bible chapter and verse must be ignorant? Yes or no?

[GraysonDave]

66. Yes, ignorant

There's nothing patently wrong with being ignorant. I only have a rudimentary knowledge of the bible. I'm pretty darn ignorant of most of it. And I'm utterly ignorant about the Koran.

I wish that I had a better understanding of all of it.

[seabeyond]

60. doesnt belong in the classroom. being a christian, i am particular

on the interpretation of christianity and the spiritual aspect of it. i dont want any tom dick and henry teaching my child this stuff. it is mine, and solely my decision on this subject. not a school. not a teacher

[GraysonDave]

68. That's a real good point

You never really know what a teacher is telling your kids. You just know there would be a lot of manipulation/indoctrination if it was being taught in school.

Maybe we should all forget I ever said anything about this.

:)

[EnfantTerrible]

82. Welcome to DU, GD.

:hi:

I understand where you're coming from in this line of thinking. Part of the problem may be that this is a child and what you are suggesting would be more appropriate for higher education where subjects are a bit more elective and not paid for with tax dollars. I agree with you that understanding religious beliefs may help us understand the world we live in today. I do believe it's possible to seperate knowledge of and indoctrination into belief systems. Religion is a hot button topic around here and doubly so when it seems that secularism is threatened by what you say.

[GraysonDave]

88. Thanks for the welcome

I'm thinking I should probably post "**** sux" in every thread to get my post count up there before posting in any more controversial threads.

:)

[EnfantTerrible]

91. Couldn't hurt.

:smoke:

[seabeyond]

89. i absolutely agree that higher education should explore

and i am a believer we should all be familiar with various beliefs. i have always had interest in all kinds of culture and behavior, has allowed me to be a more open person. but not a child. and not in todays culture of what a "good" christian is. and the christians preaching today, are not in my interpretation of the bible following Jesus word

i had kids in a christian school until 4th grade. i have done all this. but i pulled them out of private and put them in public specifically to avoid religion in school.

i would be the first addressing the teacher and then the principle

[FreedomAngel82]

106. Exactly

These people don't follow Christ's message. *sigh* And people think all of us are like that. :(

[me b zola]

84. self delete

[BiggJawn]

102. Well, I agree with you.

Because unless you've been made aware of the Bible, you will have NO understanding for why so many people in this world want to kill other people for being "infidels".

Or why it's such a big deal if 2 women get married.

Or why a whack-job former judge is making a pest of himself dragging a "Holy Stone" around the country...

Also, unless you'e read and pondered the bible, you really can't make an informed descision to become an Atheist.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

111. I have passing familiarity with the bible

and I still don't have a clue about any of those things. Maybe I've just been reading the wrong parts, but the stuff I've read would generally condemn most of that.

"Also, unless you'e read and pondered the bible, you really can't make an informed descision to become an Atheist."

Using the logic in that comment, unless you've read the holy scriptures for all religions you can't make an informed decision about any religious belief.

[BiggJawn]

124. Hmmmmmm....

"Using the logic in that comment, unless you've read the holy scriptures for all religions you can't make an informed decision about any religious belief."

Well, OK, I'll give you that. HOWEVER, since what I was coming to grips with at that point in my life was Christanity, I really didn't see any need to dive into Judaism, Islam or even Ba'Hai...

Never realized Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, et. al. were SO well versed in the religions that they proclaim daily as "False".... I underestimated them.
Why, that means the late Lester Sumrall was up on everything from Animism to the Peyote Church, because he regularly denounced ALL other manners of religion (except HIS) as "From the Devil"

"And you 'Great Spirit' believers! You need to go back to great spirit land, where you CAME from!" (talking about the Sun Dance religion, you know, the ritual practiced by the aboriginal people ot THIS country?)

[politicat]

107. My partner is doing just fine.

He comes from a non-religious background, and while he has a solid basis in secular history and political science and philosophy, he has consciously avoided studying Judeo-Christian mythology because he finds it unexceptional and plagiarized.

So I really don't think that it is impossible to understand this world without it.

[fudge stripe cookays]

149. Bullshit.

The only basic knowledge kids need to have from the bible is The Golden Rule.

If parents want to raise decent human beings to be fair and nice to people, but not read a word of scripture, that is their right. And no way should their kids be made examples of.

FSC

[Turbineguy]

26. Yes indeed

I do not see anything wrong with this. Obviously if the question had been related to Saudi Arabia it might have been appropriate to look it up in the Koran.

As a study reference I have no problem with it.

[SW FL Dem]

27. I understand your point, but the question wasn't how does this parable

relate to the play we read. The question was simply to explain the parable and cite where you find it in the Bible. This isn't a comparative religion course, it is high school English. I don't think it's appropriate for the teacher to assume that every student has a Bible at home (or internet access) in order to answer the questions.

[Bill McBlueState]

62. right on

Most people agree that the Bible can be taught in a manner appropriate for the secular classroom. But the class wasn't doing that; they were studying Hellen Keller.

So the folks upthread arguing passionately about the role of religion in society are missing the point.

[EnfantTerrible]

87. Could the request for Chapter and verse

have to do with bibliography? Like a research paper where you have to site the source? And less about forcing Chritianity on your child? Perhaps the teacher was trying to prepare the students for college level writing?

I'm not arguing for or against here... just trying to understand the context.

[jumpoffdaplanet]

71. If it had been couched in those terms, maybe

but remember the child was humiliated in front of the class.

That makes it something far different.

[Yupster]

73. Agree fizi

It's amazing how many stories, sayings and slogans come from the bible.

It was probably a mistake by the teacher, but I wouldn't have a fit.

Someone else talked of Shakespeare on this thread and that was the first thing I thought of too. You don't have a bible? That would be like not having Shakespeare in the house.

I'd talk to the teacher, but I'd go with the assumption that teachers are human and they are allowed to make mistakes too.

I bet this could be worked out without making it a case for lawyers.

[dhinojosa]

90. A good thoughtout response...

Awesome

[FreedomAngel82]

98. This was beyond that though

This was supposed to be a test apparently on Helen Keller. What does knowing the Bible have to do about Helen Keller?

[kestrel91316]

116. Sounds like this kid was being required to research religious doctrine;

in other words, he had to STUDY the meaning of the parts of the bible he was referring to. This was done, IMHO, as a sneaky way of inserting religious teaching into public school.

Go directly to the ACLU and sue. Don't waste time complaining to the principal or the board. This s--t has GOT to stop.

[mcscajun]

10. Call the ACLU -- see about a lawsuit.

This is Way Over the Line.

Citing Chapter and Verse? gimme a fuckin' Break, already!

Tell the school board and the principal that this teacher ought to take her proselytizing elsewhere; that it has No Place in a Public School!

A LTTE to your local papers would be in order, as well.

[flordehinojos]

11. i said it in another thread earlier today. i'll say it again.

i am tired of people pushing GOD down your throat. I am sick of people's turpid morality. I am sick of people's GOD,GOD,GOD... I want GOD to be free to be GOD. I want GOD to be free so that you are free to discover him (or not) in HIS own time (or yours)... STOP PUSHING GOD DOWN PEOPLE'S THROAT... GOD NEEDS TO BE FREE TO BE GOD so that he can let you be free to be you! that is what i have to say about this histeria and this thing about people being more GODS than GOD.

[La Coliniere]

12. Un*ucking believable!

Take the advice of others here. Go to the school board and COMPLAIN. Unless, of course, you live in certain counties in Kansas. In that case, you might want a good lawyer by your side.

[la la]

14. PUBLIC SCHOOL???

sorry for shouting, but I will ditto WTF ---not acceptable in a Public School, anywhere! Go as far as you can with this and then call in the ACLU troops. Now.

[lynne]

16. The Bible as it relates to art, literature and history -

- seems to come up every so often. My son is in 8h grade and I went to "back-to-school" night last night. The World History teacher told us that there would be an entire chapter devoted to various religions and how those religions impacted history of the world.

Apparently your sons teacher felt the parable of the lost lamb and original sin was important to a complete understanding of the play. As with any reference book, you have to include chapter and verse in the Bibliography.

Like it or not, religion played a big part in world history, geography, art and literature. To not include it would be to not teach the subject in its entirety.

[annabanana]

25. "various religions"

exactly.. That's not what this teacher was asking for.. and the kid was scolded for NOT using chapter & verse in the answer..

[lynne]

40. It would seem -

- that's because that particular play on Helen Keller had Biblical references only. If the play was "The Diary of Ann Frank", they would have used the Torah for reference in lieu of the Bible.

You can't always include all religions within one piece of literature or art or play. And, if we begin to exclude wonderful works because they have a reference to only one religion contained somewhere within them, we will soon be burning books and art.

The kid was scolded because he failed to prepare his Bibliography correctly, which requires chapter and verse of the research document. It just so happened that his research document was The Bible.

[annabanana]

46. the bibliography would require the page number..

not the chapter and verse...

[DerBeppo]

108. nope

you need to cite translation (niv, king james, etc.), chapter and verse in MLA and APA.

[SW FL Dem]

48. what Bibliography? These were short answers to test questions n/t

[Walt Starr]

51. I call BULLSHIT

You know nothing of the specifics in this case. None of us do. The OP made vague references without specifics.

The only thing we know for certain is that from the child's viewpoint, nothing about the biblical references were taught, and that's where the line gets crossed if indeed these events happened because the teacher was requiring reaction for which there was no frame of reference and thus penalized a student without active particiation in Christianity.

But if you ask me, this entire thread is bullshit.

[Yupster]

81. I don't know

it's been decades since I read about Helen Keller, but wasn't her teacher a very religious person? I seem to remember that. If she wrote in parables it might be appropriate. I don't know.

As a former teacher, I'd hate to have a lawsuit made of every mistake I made. Sometimes I made them. It was enough for someone to tell me and I didn't do it again. I really didn't need to be on the front page of the local newspaper or dragged in front of the school board when I made a mistake.

[SW FL Dem]

54. My son studied various religions in Geography in 7th grade

I had NO problem with that. I agree that religion played and continues to play a huge part in world history, geography and literature. IF the teacher had given them the parable and asked them to explain why it was relevant to the story, that would have been a fair question. He didn't, the issue was never discussed in class nor did he give the kids the parable, he told them to find in on their own and explain it.

[kath]

18. OMFG!

Call the ACLU, stat.

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. It would be okay for the teacher to teach ABOUT the bible

and to ask students to reference it.

BUT not giving them a bible to refer to is really bad.

[goddess40]

29. if they are going to teach about the bible

they have to be willing to hear kids say that it isn't true.

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. You're right

but wouldn't that be considered un-patriotic?

[goddess40]

72. only to the fascists nt

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

20. ask the teacher why god made her deaf, mute and blind

[maine_raptor]

21. As a former teacher and husband of a current teacher

I don't see the relevance of either question to the subject being tested, i.e. Helen Keller.

This sounds like it is way over the line territory. Complain to the teacher, the school's principal, and the school board in that order. Keep going until you get an answer and satisfaction.

The problem with this kind of issue is NOT the religion so much as the including of irrelevancy.

[goddess40]

22. Have him write about the myths in the bible

How these are stories that some people believe. That would sure put the teacher on the spot.

I wish he could really answer that way but it would sure set him up as the teachers punching bag for the rest of the year.

I'd demand a different teacher.

[DistressedAmerican]

24. Don't Get Pissed. Take Action. That Is Way Out Of Line.

Report it and then be sure to follow up. Maybe a nice letter from your lawyer would get their attention.

[koopie57]

30. I normally wouldn't

get too upset over a question like this if it were relative to the material and referring to the bible wasn't a usual occurance, but I don't understand how these questions relate to Helen Keller, especially how they were worded. But even if they were relevant, why would the Bible chapter and verse be in the play? How is that relevant? It sounds to me like he wanted the kids to open up a bible.

[SW FL Dem]

42. Exactly - neither was mentioned in the play and the questions weren't

about any relevance the Bible verses had to the play. This was a take home test and the teacher assumed the kids would have a Bible at home. I wouldn't have a problem if they had discussed the issues in class and the question was to explain how the parable related to the play.

[maine_raptor]

45. Take home test

If the teacher assumed students would have Bible, then what would the Jewish students do? One of those parables is found in the New Testiment. There goes 10% for them.

Nope, this stiks and you got a good beef here, SW FL Dem

[dsc]

85. They would do what she did

research it online or at the library. Most kids don't have encyclopedias at home yet teachers require those all the time.

[Walt Starr]

31. I ain't buyin' this

Go figure.

:shrug:

[nonconformist]

57. I'm skeptical as well. nt

[Az]

35. Tricky

Yes... the bible is literature. Quite famous literature. Other works make allusions to it. The stories in it perculate through our culture. Images and ideas find their way into great works.

The trouble is that the classrooms have become a battle ground. Fundamentalists want the government to endorse their beliefs. The rest of us want the government to stay out of matters of religion.

The upshot of this is that a case such as this is clearly a attempt to leverage religion into the classroom. Many times cries of slippery slope are made in political discussions. But in cases like this the slope is chosen and greased by those trying to pursue their agenda.

A srtict reading of the law and the class assignment show no direct conflict. But an understanding of the situation does indicate deliberate manipulation in an attempt to usurp the constitution.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. Now if the teacher's intent was genuinely to have the students

understand the allusions in the play, he or she should have explained them in class.

There are Biblical allusions throughout English and American literature.

It sounds, however, as if the teacher was looking for a backdoor method of getting students to read the Bible.

[maine_raptor]

41. If the test was about the play, then

why base 20% of it on something NOT in the play. This smells bad.

[kath]

59. I was also thinking that 20% of the test score about the Bibble seems WAY

too high.

[Mr_Spock]

47. My Answer: Mary Magdalene is the Holy Grail!!

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[Az]

49. Somones obviously waiting for the movie

:evilgrin:

[Mr_Spock]

137. I'm sure the book will still be better

:D

[starroute]

58. For perspective, assume it was any other myth

For example, if the class were reading Frankenstein, and the teacher asked them to find out why the subtitle was "The New Prometheus," it would clearly be sufficient for the students to respond with Greek myth/fire from heaven/punished by the gods. No one would expect them to pin down exactly where in classical literature we know the story from.

There's a reason why the phrase "cite chapter and verse" means to go into obsessive legalistic detail.

[seabeyond]

65. people, who prayed, talked christianity, or bible in elementary

school growing up. they talk about taking prayer out of school. i went to elementary in the 70's, no bible, no prayer, no discussions. this was in the church. my father was in the late 40's early 50's. no bible no prayer..........

this is NEW bringing it into the schools. it is not bringing it BACK. we never did it

anyone else growing up do this in your school. it was in church

[Yupster]

86. We had a prayer with cookies and milk

every afternoon in our public school class.

This would have been in the early-mid sixties.

[troubleinwinter]

70. I disagree with you.

Research is research. There is nothing wrong with doing the background research.

My daughter was in high school and she was doing a paper on hate groups. What she dug up online was ghastly... hideous... horrendous... nauseating. You would NOT want to know the things she saw and read. She was disgusted and repelled. We talked about it.

I nearly wanted to throw the computer into the sewer knowing that stuff had come through there.

Your child should know what people are thinking about if they think of "original sin" or whatever. I don't know that the teacher has any agenda at all.

I don't think you should be pissed. Your child didn't manage to back up his work with proper source, ie., "chapter and verse".

I don't know the age of your child, but if the teacher had assigned him to report on "Little Red Riding Hood" and did not read the material and properly source his report with the author, he might well be criticized.

[SW FL Dem]

74. This wasn't research - it was a test on the play Helen Keller

At NO time was either the parable of the lost lamb or the original sin mentioned in classroom discussions of the play. This was a take home test on the play, the last two questions required research in the Bible or online. There was no requirement for providing sources for the research.

[JanMichael]

77. Did the play include the fact that Ms. Keller was a Socialist?

I hope so.

[Warren DeMontague]

122. Nope.

Sanitized For Your Protection!

[dsc]

83. That is a mistake on the teacher's part

Either you tell students up front that citations are required or you assume they won't be provided. I have no idea what grade your son is in but I teach juniors and seniors and even they have to be told both to cite sources and how to cite sources.

[hunter]

75. I would've told my kid not to bother with the question.

Then I would've told the teacher I wanted to talk to him specifically about those two questions... the teacher would then chicken out and say, "um, um, that's okay, it was an optional question."

Most of these jokers are pretty cowardly about their own faith, otherwise they wouldn't be picking on kids.

[tlsmith1963]

78. If You Want to Learn Religious Stuff...

...do it at church, not at school.

Sorry, but that's how I feel.

Tammy

[dsc]

79. I honestly fail to see a problem with this

assuming that those parts of the Bible play some part in the play. It has been years since I saw the movie and I have no idea the extent to which the movie varies from the book. Thus I don't know what extent those things are cited in the play.

I do know that the notion of original sin has been used through the ages and I would think well into the 1800's to explain why people like Helen Keller were born with handicaps.

I am more than a little surprised that the sites that explained those parts of the Bible didn't give a chapter and verse. Though, in fairness, the teacher should have specificly asked for those if he wished them to be included in the answer. I am not sure I would have included them either if the question didn't ask for them.

But I don't think one has to be a religious fanatic to think that in order to understand US history one has to have a basic idea of what the Bible says. To sight just two examples. I fail to see how one can understand either the motivation or the speechs of MLK without some understanding of the Bible nor do I see a person fully understanding Lincoln without it.

[Warren DeMontague]

120. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to talk about who Helen Keller REALLY was?

http://www.rethinkingschools.org/archive/17_01/Kell171.shtml

Shit like that is NEVER talked about in public school classes, just like they censor out certain verses of Woody Guthrie's "This land is your land"...

But, sure, it's the BIBLE that we need more representation for in Public Schools. :eyes:

[dsc]

141. Not in a literature class

While the choice to leave out aspects of her life may well be studied as part of studying literature I am not sure that is more valid that teaching the skill of relating one piece of literature to another one from which it borrowed ideas.

[AzDar]

92. Sorry, the Bible is a religious instrument...has NO business in ANY

public institution. Nor do the Torah, Koran, Necronomicon, etc.

[FreedomAngel82]

96. I'd be pissed too

That's just ridiculous! At my high school we had a Bible History class that was optional to take and none of my teachers ever did such things and I live in Tennessee! What she did was just outrageous. You should get a law suit for sure!

[Massacure]

105. As a high school senior, I tell you to raise hell about it.

The only time I was ever forced to study christianity was during our studies of the Middle East and how Christianity, Judaism, and Islam have branched over the years to create the current conflict.

When I read Helen Keller I was in third grade. Comparing how literature makes reference to the Bible would go way over the head of someone in elementary school.

[newspeak]

110. newspeak

if religion is taught, it should be all religions, in an elective class, preferably for highschool or jr high students. In my college philosophy class, we learned different perceptions of religion. And, even in that class when it came to multiple dieties, we had a few in class, arms folded, that refused to want to even hear anything about anything contrary to one diety. Also, in my humanities class, we had a few that folded their arms, and refused to keep an open mind regarding different perceptions of belief. How do you teach objectivity ? It's not like the professors were pushing a belief system-they just wanted them to understand that there are different perceptions of beliefs.

[insanity]

109. This may be off subject because I'm not familiar with the play

A lot of literature draws allusions to scenes from the bible. The allusion to Cain and Able, original sin, prodigal sun etc.. are so common in books. I think it would be a shame to read a book with a powerful metaphor or allusion and not have the kids understand it. One of the most rewarding books I ever read in English class was East of Eden (which is entirely based off the Cain and Abel story), and to better understand the text, we drew from the bible. However, if the story called for understanding of an allusion to Islam, I think it would only be practical for the teacher to have the kids understand it from the text itself.

[newspeak]

113. Bible used as text

Yes, the Bible is considered a literary work, however; in this case is it used as a literary work or is it pushing a belief.

[DerBeppo]

114. boy am i glad most of you aren't lit teachers.

With the amount of influence that the bible has had and the innumerable direct allusions to parables, verses and stories from the bible in nearly every piece of literature since Chaucer, the insane disqualification of the source material is just as bad as a teacher using his or her position to proselytize.

sue the teacher for teaching a student to go to the source of character motivation and look for outside connections beyond the text? jesus...how progressive.

[Az]

119. Remeber the culture war

Under normal circumstances this would not be a problem. But these are not normal times. There are countless attacks being waged by the religious right to get religion into the class room any way they can. And of late they have been specializing in deceptive means of doing so.

The ID assault on science is just such a creature. By distancing themself from Creationism and simulating a lab coat by using trumped up claims they attempt to pass ID off as an alternate theory even though it is not a proper theory.

This situation smells of the same thing. While acknowledging the impact of the bible in a work of literature would be acceptable the fact that so much of the expectation comes from a close reading of the core Christian concepts suggest that there is something else going on here.

Stealth candidates running for school boards, groups gluing pages of science books together, attempts to get prayer enforced in school, all manner of tactics are being used. Forgive us if we suspect the intent of this situation.

[DerBeppo]

123. right

and giving up essential rights due to the "war on terror" is valid since "these are not normal times."

i'm sorry, but this kind of overreaction cuts to the heart of academic freedom and the ability of a teacher to do his or her job in the best possible manner. it's bad enough that we have to look over our shoulders because fundie (of for that matter hyper-pc) parents are always going nuts over the language used in some materials, but now we have to look over our other shoulder for the left? no, not this teacher.

i'll use the bible when appropriate and i won't think a second thought about it.

[Az]

125. Yes you will

But as I said this case seems to be a bit beyond what one would expect for the situation. There is such an emphasis on the bible described in this situation that it seems to be drawing focus from the actual subject.

If the intent of the teacher is to force Christian doctrine on the students then it is definately unconstitutional. If the intent is to explain some aspect of the literature then it is perfectly acceptable.

That is the trouble. We cannot discern the intent. We don't have enough information to make an adequate judgement of this. There does seem to be some information suggesting intent but nowhere near enough to be certain.

Can we agree that it is wrong for a teacher in a public school to try to force religious doctrine on students for evangelical purposes? Even if they use loopholes to do so. If there is no intent to force doctrine and instead merely demonstrate literary refences then it is acceptable.

[DerBeppo]

128. of course

but there's nothing here that shows me that he was trying to indoctrinate his students. this teacher has done something that i've done many times--he asked students to take a concept inside the text and connect it to another widely available text. the ability to connect different texts by concept or theme is a vital critical thinking skill.

now, if the concepts were not discussed previously in class or the possible biblical allusions never talked about, then that's a lapse in technique, not proof of attempted conversion.

seriously, the people jumping for the removal of this teacher and litigation after reading one vague side of the story aren't any better than those who demand the firing of teachers for introducing harry potter into a classroom.

[Az]

130. The culture war makes people trigger happy

The problem is the religious right has abandoned the social contract and no longer plays by the rules. Their only goal at this time seems to be win at any cost. There is no attempt to build a society of diverse beliefs and backgrounds. They have decided that only their version of truth and justice shall apply. This attitude makes those trying to maintain the contract leary.

[DerBeppo]

133. leery

calling for lawsuits and the destruction of a person's livelihood are not actions of the leery--those are the actions of the bloodthirsty. i'm all for being vigilant, but this reaction is just scary.

[Az]

138. Intent

Intent is key here. Let us consider the matter before us.

A teacher not trying to make a religious point would likely remain wary of such an assignment.

A teacher that was trying to make a point about the interconnectivity of literature and did not want to be cowed by political intrigue would not make as large a portion of the lesson focused on core religious values.

A teacher that had a religious motivation is most likely to make the religious aspects a larger focus as this example seems to suggest.

Again, we are dealing with limited evidence here and we are dealing with the difficult aspect of trying to identify intent. But people are quick to make such calls when small amounts of information are provided. They tend to fill in the blanks as they will.

[SW FL Dem]

142. There was no connection between the Bible questions on the test and

the play. There was no discussion of the Bible in the class, the questions on the test were limited to identifying the Bible lessons. The teacher didn't ask why the Bible lessons may be relevant to the play

[Warren DeMontague]

115. Four letters: ACLU

And in terms of original sin, I would have told him to answer "The Original Sin was people trying to foist their religious beliefs onto others"

[kath]

132. Yep, ACLU. (which, by the way, Helen Keller helped found.)

[Warren DeMontague]

117. He should have said that Helen Keller died a socialist

she had more to do with socialism than the bible.

Oh, and she helped FOUND the friggin ACLU:

http://www.rethinkingschools.org/archive/17_01/Kell171.shtml

HELEN KELLER CHRONOLOGY

David Adler's best-selling A Picture Book of Helen Keller includes an ending chronology, typical of the dates that other authors include about Helen Keller's life:

1880 Born on June 27 in Tuscumbia, Alabama.

1882 As a result of illness, became deaf and blind.

1887 Met Anne Sullivan.

1900 Entered Radcliffe College.

1924 Began to work for the American Federation for the Blind.

1936 Ann Sullivan died on October 20.

1946 Visited injured soldiers.

1964 Received the Presidential Medal of Freedom from President Lyndon Johnson.

1968 Died on June 1. There are a few dates I would add to this chronology that highlight her lifelong commitment to social justice:

1903 The Story of My Life is published - first in a series of articles in The Ladies' Home Journal, and then as a book.

1907 Helen writes a groundbreaking article for The Ladies' Home Journal in an effort to prevent blindness among infants caused by the mother's venereal disease. (She rallies forces to convince the medical establishment to treat children's eyes at birth with a cleansing solution as a regular procedure.)

1908 Publication of The World I Live In.

1909 Becomes a socialist and a suffragist.

1912 Publicly speaks out in favor of birth control, and in support of Margaret Sanger's work

1914 Demonstrates with the Woman's Peace Party to call for peace in Europe; after the demonstration, she makes an impassioned speech for pacifism and socialism in crowded Carnegie Hall.

1915 Writes articles publicly denouncing Rockefeller as a "monster of Capitalism," responsible for the Ludlow Massacre, (at his coal mine in Ludlow, Colorado) where men, women, and children were killed in a bloody confrontation between strikers and the militia.

1916 Openly supports the Industrial Workers of the World.

1917 Donates money to the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) and writes a supportive article in the NAACP Journal.

1918 Helps found the American Civil Liberties Union to fight for freedom of speech.

1919 Stars in Deliverance, a silent movie about her life; supports Actors Equity Union's strike by refusing to cross the picket line to attend the opening.

1924 Campaigns for Robert LaFollette, a Progressive running for president as a third-party candidate.

1929 Publication of Midstream: My Later Life.

1948 Visits "the black silent hole" that had once been Hiroshima and Nagasaki and recommits herself to the anti-war movement.

1961 Suffers first stroke; retires from public life.

[kath]

135. Thanks for that link, Impeachdubya. Here's another:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/History/Hero-making_LMTTM.html

(excerpt)
The truth is that Helen Keller was a radical socialist. She joined the Socialist party of Massachusetts in 1909. She had become a social radical even before she graduated from Radcliffe, and not, she emphasized, because of any teachings available there. After the Russian Revolution, she sang the praises of the new communist nation: "In the East a new star is risen! With pain and anguish the old order has given birth to the new, and behold in the East a man-child is born! Onward, comrades, all together! Onward to the campfires of Russia! Onward to the coming dawn!" ~ Keller hung a red flag over the desk in her study. Gradually she moved to the left of the Socialist party and became a Wobbly, a member of the Industrial Workers of the World (IWW) the syndicalist union persecuted by Woodrow Wilson.
p22
At the time Keller became a socialist, she was one of the most famous women on the planet. She soon became the most notorious. Her conversion to socialism caused a new storm of publicity-this time outraged. Newspapers that had extolled her courage and intelligence now emphasized her handicap. Columnists charged that she had no independent sensory input and was in thrall to those who fed her information. Typical was the editor of the Brooklyn Eagle> who wrote that Keller's "mistakes spring out of the manifest limitations of her development."
Keller recalled having met this editor: "At that time the compliments he paid me were so generous that I blush to remember them. But now that I have come out for socialism he reminds me and the public that I am blind and deaf and especially liable to error. I must have shrunk in intelligence during the years since I met him." She went on, "Oh, ridiculous Brooklyn Eagle! Socially blind and deaf, it defends an intolerable system, a system that is the cause of much of the physical blindness and deafness which we are trying to prevent." 8
Keller, who devoted much of her later life to raising funds for the American Foundation for the Blind, never wavered in her belief that our society needed radical change. Having herself fought so hard to speak, she helped found the American Civil Liberties Union to fight for the free speech of others. She sent $100 to the NAACP with a letter of support that appeared in its magazine The Crisis-a radical act for a white person from Alabama in the 1920s. She supported Eugene V. Debs, the Socialist candidate, in each of his campaigns for the presidency. She composed essays on the women's movement, on politics, on economics. Near the end of her life, she wrote to Elizabeth Gurley Flynn, leader of the American Communist party, who was then languishing in jail, a victim of the McCarthy era: "Loving birthday greetings, dear Elizabeth Flynn! May the sense of serving mankind bring strength and peace into your brave heart!"

I HIGHLY recommend the book from which the material at the site linked above is excerpted: "Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong", by James Loewen.
I was fortunate to hear Mr. Loewen speak at 2 homeschooling conferences that my family attended in the late '90s. If you get a chance to attend a lecture of his, go!

[Milspec]

118. The Pledge

Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).

Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward Bellamy in his novels and articles described in detail how the middle class could create a planned economy with political, social and economic equality for all. The government would run a peace time economy similar to our present military industrial complex.

The Pledge was published in the September 8th issue of The Youth's Companion, the leading family magazine and the Reader's Digest of its day. Its owner and editor, Daniel Ford, had hired Francis in 1891 as his assistant when Francis was pressured into leaving his baptist church in Boston because of his socialist sermons. As a member of his congregation, Ford had enjoyed Francis's sermons. Ford later founded the liberal and often controversial Ford Hall Forum, located in downtown Boston.....

More at http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

[nashbridges]

121. are you sure you are talking about a public school?

"the original sin" is a catholic construct. Are you sending your son to private school and you're pissed?

[sakabatou]

126. People like that teacher deserve to be fired

[Az]

127. Maybe

We don't know the full story. It definately seems suspicious, but the bible is a book that has impact on literature. It all boils down to the teachers intent. If it was it indoctrinate students with Christian doctrine then there is trouble. If it was to show how social concepts are drawn from various sources then it is within the bounds of the law.

[sakabatou]

129. True, but you know

It sounds very fishy...

[DerBeppo]

134. right

and sounding "fishy" is absolutely grounds for lawsuits and the firing of a teacher.

[sakabatou]

136. Now you're just being mean

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

131. Call up the ACLU! nt

[hayu_lol]

139. Without the concept of original sin, there could be no...

christianity.

Mencken's Creed

I believe that religion, generally speaking, has been a curse to mankind that its modest and greatly overestimated services on the ethical side have been more than overcome by the damage it has done to clear and honest thinking.

I believe that no discovery of fact, however trivial, can be wholly useless to the race, and that no trumpeting of falsehood, however virtuous in intent, can be anything but vicious.

I believe that all government is evil, in that all government must necessarily make war upon liberty...

I believe that the evidence for immortality is no better than the evidence of witches, and deserves no more respect.

I believe in the complete freedom of thought and speech...

I believe in the capacity of man to conquer his world, and to find out what it is made of, and how it is run.

I believe in the reality of progress.

I--But the whole thing, after all, may be put very simply. I believe that it is better to tell the truth than to lie. I believe that it is better to be free than to be a slave. And I believe that it is better to know than be ignorant.

H.L. Mencken

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

146. Here's an interesting fact...

According to wikipedia, Keller was heavily involved in politics, and was an active socialist, a founder of the ACLU, and a supporter of communism. Why not ask the teacher to get the children to investigate some of those? It doesn't make any mention of Christianity, as far as I can see...

Although to be fair if the study if of the play, rather than the woman, then focussing on original sin may be justified. Who is this play by?

[TechBear_Seattle]

148. Assuming the play was "The Miracle Worker"

The author was William Gibson, who based it on Keller's autobiography, "The Story Of My Life." It was written as a drama for television and rewritten in 1959 for stage performances on Broadway. Subsequent movie versions were based on the play.

[Pacifist Patriot]

152. I'd like to know more about the play.

Helen Keller was a fascinating individual but unfortunately schools stop short of her learning to communicate. A shame since WHAT she communicated was astounding.

[TechBear_Seattle]

153. Google is your best friend

I don't think the play itself is available online, but you can certainly order it from your local independent bookstore. As for Helen Keller herself, you might want to reference the Wikipedia. Her article is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Keller

[TechBear_Seattle]

147. As I remember, the two questions are at the heart of the play

Keller's parents refused to help Helen because they believed that she was God's punishment against their own sins, and that her limitations were the result of God's general punishment against the sinful nature of mankind (ie Original Sin.) Anne Sullivan challenged her parent's fatalism by using their own religiosity: the parable of the Lost Lamb. The conflict between religious fatalism and religious hope is the central, core theme of the play. Helen Keller is nothing more than a vehicle for that theme.

Simply put, to understand the play you need to understand the basis of the central metaphors of the play. It is like trying to comprehend "The Crucible" without knowing the reason why Puritans feared witches, or trying to figure out "My Name is Asher Lev" when you have no clue about Hasidic Judaism.

I will agree with you that upbraiding a student in front of the class like you describe is inexcuseable, no matter what the reason. It is a real shame that the teacher passed up a chance to discuss proper citation techniques, and her reaction seems to show a total disregard for the teaching profession and the education of her students.

Given the central theme of the play, you can -- as an atheist, I dare say should -- challenge whether the play itself is appropriate. But if it is appropriate, the research questions are also appropriate.

[Pacifist Patriot]

151. I'm a non-Christian and I'd have to know more before becoming incensed.

The Bible is a legitimate source of literature and reference for appropriate citations in the context of answering a question.

If the public school teacher is requiring the use of a text, whether religious or secular, the teacher should provide adequate time to do the research and point the student to alternatives. i.e. "If you don't have ____ in your home, the following website is very helpful...., the school library and the public library also have copies available.

The question should relate to the course material and the teacher should explain why and how it relates.

The Bible may be increasingly controversial but it is inextricable from western civilization. A well-educated individual will have at least a passing familiarity with common stories and themes. Personally, I think all liberals should avail themselves of biblical learning opportunities in order to wrest it from the grips of fundamentalists.

I highly recommend the book Understanding the Bible : An Introduction for Skeptics, Seekers, and Religious Liberals by John Buehrens.

I used this source in one of my academic papers arguing for liberal hermeneutics. http://www.unitarianminister.org/theo_507.htm

Shakespeare and the Bible have probably contributed more figures of speech and allusions than the remainder of western literature combined. -- Just a guess. ;)

I would be more upset by the teacher singling out the child's performance than the actual assignment. If the child goes on to college, proper citation becomes even more critical as does researching sources with which the student may not be familiar and/or may not be comfortable. This situation warrants a discussion with the teacher and/or principal but for matters of clarification and behavior. I don't think it's quite time to call in the ACLU.

This opinion is coming from a card carrying member of the ACLU, Americans United for Separation of Church and State and the Interfaith Alliance.