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Acupuncture is no placebo and does relieve pain, say scientists

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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-10 12:31 AM
Original message
Acupuncture is no placebo and does relieve pain, say scientists
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1334288/Acupuncture-placebo-does-relieve-pain-say-scientists.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

The research team from the University Hospital in Essen, Germany, studied whether giving acupuncture affected how the brain reacted to electric shocks.

Eighteen volunteers underwent sophisticated brain scans at the same time as an electric shock was applied to their left ankle. Acupuncture needles were then placed at three places on the right side – between the toes, below the knee and near the thumb – and the electric current switched back on.

A second set of brain scans showed noticeably less activity in the brain’s pain regions.
Ouch: A woman undergoes acupuncture treatment on her face

Researcher Dr Nina Theysohn said: ‘Activation of brain areas involved in pain perception was significantly reduced or modulated under acupuncture.




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safeinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-10 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. Just like other
chiropractors services, they want you to get 3 treatments a week at $30 a pop. Back to the Advil.
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nosmokes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-10 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I don't know WTF you're referring to but acupuncture definitely helped treat my
migraines related to brain cancer when not much else was working and the course of treatment was and is at my and the insurance company and the acupuncturist's call, just like any medical treatment in our totally fucked up system. To pay for a session out of pocket would run me about $50. Try and spend an hour hands on with any other medical healer for that price.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-10 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. And Advil is probably not safe to take for a long time.
Edited on Tue Nov-30-10 01:24 AM by tabatha
You did the right thing. Notice that those who oppose these treatments have no idea about the treatments, and just stick to the emotions.

Edit: I know of a woman who had back problems, and with consultation between her doctor and chiropractor had two operations by the doctor, and the remaining problems were fixed by the chiropractor.
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evirus Donating Member (782 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-10 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #3
25. What's there to not understand? these aren't scientific treatments.
no idea about the treatments? if you want your treatment to be used in real medicine, first off it helps to not be arrogant and assume that people who don't accept your claims simply "don't understand" the treatment, secondly it should at least be explainable using a modern understanding of biology rather than the archaic "chi lines" of acupuncture and bogus "alignment caused ailments" of chiropractor.

and the problem with anacdotal evidence is that the sample size is exactly one (typical validity requires something over 100) and there is no controlling of variables, do we know if the chiropractor really fixed the remaining problems, or if the operations, after all was said and done speaking interms of recovery from surgeries effects on the body, when away regardless of the chiropractors treatment?
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-10 02:32 AM
Response to Original message
4. Looks like once again, a study that disproves acupuncture is touted as supporting it.
Did the study base the needle placement on qi/meridians/some other TCM concept? No. It just showed, once again, that if you stick yourself with needles, you can get a beneficial effect.

Getting the same result regardless of method disproves the method being tested. It doesn't matter where you stick the needles!
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-10 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. here--from the article
"Eighteen volunteers underwent sophisticated brain scans at the same time as an electric shock was applied to their left ankle. Acupuncture needles were then placed at three places on the right side – between the toes, below the knee and near the thumb – and the electric current switched back on."

There are acupuncture points on all of the above--major ones.

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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-10 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. That doesn't dispute what laconicsax said at all.
The only thing that studies of acupuncture have shown is that inserting needles appears to release endorphins, which are wonderful natural substances the body makes to deal with pain.

Not one study has shown the validity of "acupuncture points," of "chi," of "meridians," or anything else the woo practitioners and charlatans want to bolt on.
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-10 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. ummm
The OP is about ONE study and what it found.

All needles were placed on the same points.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-10 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Then you admit the study is flawed.
A study confirming the existence of specific locations where the needles *must* be used (i.e., meridians) would have placed the needles in different locations and looked for differences in pain relief or whatnot.

Thanks for confirming what laconicsax originally said! :hi:
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-10 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. the pain was appled in the same place for all of them
This was proof of concept that placing needles in important acupuncture points changed brainwaves. Seems like you would like research like this. Oh well.

If you don't like it, design your own experiment and pay for it.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-10 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. It's not a matter of me liking the experiment.
It doesn't confirm what you think it confirms.

To do so, the needles would need to be moved around to different spots and compare. They weren't, as you admitted yourself. So from this point onward, you're only arguing with yourself. Good luck - I hope you win.
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Richard D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-10 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Yes
Liver 3, Stomach 36, and Large Intestine 4 by the sound of it. Very major points.
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-10 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. And where's the study showing that those points have anything to do with the results?
Acupuncture is about sticking the needles in specific places to yield specific results. There's no evidence as of yet to suggest that it makes a difference where you stick the needles, acupuncture is falsified.

Saying that meridians are real because sticking someone with needles results in beneficial effects regardless of where the needles go is akin to claiming that by following a set routine every night before bed, you ensure that the sun will rise in the morning.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-10 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. Indeed.
Somehow, the authors of this study (which doesn't appear to have a placebo component, so the claim that there's more to acupuncture than placebo is hilarious), forgot about this study:

Acute pain is eased with the touch of a hand, study shows
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/09/100923125111.htm
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-10 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. It's more likely that the columnist who wrote the piece in the OP forgot about it.
I'd like to see what the study actually says and compare that to how it's portrayed here.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-10 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Indeed.
Still, if the touch study is taken into consideration, this study would seem to do one thing: "confirm" that another type of touch may have an effect on the body's response to acute pain.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-10 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. It's also interesting to note that the study doesn't appear to be slated for publication.
Edited on Tue Nov-30-10 04:54 PM by HuckleB
Or at least I'm too much of a dunderhead to find anything that indicates that it is slated for publication.
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-10 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Probably the former, though I won't rule out the latter.
:P
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-10 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
18. Reinventing the wheel
This has been shown more than once. What needs to be determined is whether or not the Chinese system of "meridians" has any validity, or if random dry needling can produce the same effect.
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-10 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. IIRC, it's been shown that random placement yields the same effects.
The study being reported here doesn't "prove" acupuncture, just demonstrates why getting stuck with needles can relieve pain.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-10 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. It's been shown that mere touch leads to the same effect.
Acupuncture remains an invention without genuine purpose.
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Monetary gain is as genuine a purpose as any for alt-med.
Edited on Sat Dec-04-10 12:49 AM by laconicsax
It's probably a guiding philosophy for a lot of it.
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housewolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 03:02 AM
Response to Original message
22. My own experience with acupuncture
I woke up one day last February with pain in my upper right arm. I hadn't done anything to it, no injury or reason for the pain at all. After it worsened over the next couple of weeks, I made an appt with my primary dr., had an x-ray and he wrote an order for physical therapy. I was skeptical and held off for a couple more weeks, during which time the pain worsened so I finally made that PT appt. I went 1 - 2 times per week for a couple months with no relief in the pain - rather, it just kept getting worse.

Finally, I decided to try acupuncture. Fortunately, where I am located there are several "community acupuncture centers" which offer very low-cost treatments. After my first treatment, my arm felt a little better. A bit better after the second. A bit more better after the third. After my 5th session, the pain was almost entirely gone, my arm felt almost back to normal, and I didn't feel the need for any additional treatments. That was last August, and at this point, my arm is still doing fine with no need for additional treatment.

So compare 5 acupunture treatments with a dr appt, an x-ray and 10 physical therapy appointments... and you can guess which I will try first if something like this ever happens again.

Needless to say, I've become an acupuncture advocate...

regardless of whatever scientific studies show.

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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. I'm glad you're unswayed by reality. n/t
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
The most solid scientific principle there is!
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mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-10 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. amazing how all of these "anecdotal experiences"
Edited on Fri Dec-10-10 08:42 PM by mzteris
all have the same result. . .

It is so entirely coincidental that my son's Osgood Schlatters had him taking Ibuprofen/tylenol combo EVERY SINGLE DAY - 2 to 4x a day! - and would still CRY with the pain - would miraculously feel better after beginning acupuncture. Nope. No correlation here. Move along. Nothing to see. Just a bunch of quacks making a kid feel better who'd been in chronic pain for months. Just a complete and utter COINCIDENCE that the pain stopped when the acupuncture started!!

spelling!!
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-10 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. It's even more amazing that actual studies don't verify what these anecdotes claim.
Edited on Fri Dec-10-10 09:50 PM by HuckleB
The Context of Anecdotes and Anomalies
http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=2560
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BuddhaGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-10 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. hooray for acupuncture!
Great testimonial about your son. :thumbsup: I've had great results too over the years.

Acupuncture works!
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-10 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Astrology with needles
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=583

Give reality a try. It might even be better than fantasy.
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mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. well - this "fantasy" has had great results - so I think we'll stick with it.
The "reality" of taking painkillers every single day and still suffering a whole lot of pain, is just one damn reality I think we'll do without, thank you very much.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Enjoy your placebo effect.
Edited on Sat Dec-11-10 06:29 PM by HuckleB
It remains irresponsible and unethical to promote such belief based practices.
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mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. My son IS enjoying being PAIN-FREE!
It would be extremely irresponsible and grossly selfish not to share what is obviously WORKING! (regardless of the reason)
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. So you claim every time acupuncture is shown, yet again, to have no basis.
Edited on Sat Dec-11-10 07:34 PM by HuckleB
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mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. I absolutely have BASIS -
My son is pain free. THAT is basis.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. I understand you have a belief.
Edited on Sun Dec-12-10 02:00 PM by HuckleB
Unfortunately, that belief is not supported by plausibility, nor by the abundance of evidence in regard to the treatment in question.
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mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. it's an incontrovertible fact, huck.
Pain before.

No pain after.

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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. So you say.
Unfortunately, the real evidence goes against your claims.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-10 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #26
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