The Teachers’ Unions’ Last Stand

[Catshrink]

from the NYT a "magazine preview." Let's all bow down to Arne Duncan and how he's making those greedy incompetent teachers get in line. I recommend a strong brew to accompany this.

The Teachers’ Unions’ Last Stand

MICHAEL MULGREW is an affable former Brooklyn vocational-high-school teacher who took over last year as head of New York City’s United Federation of Teachers when his predecessor, Randi Weingarten, moved to Washington to run the national American Federation of Teachers. Over breakfast in March, we talked about a movement spreading across the country to hold public-school teachers accountable by compensating, promoting or even removing them according to the results they produce in class, as measured in part by student test scores. Mulgrew’s 165-page union contract takes the opposite approach. It not only specifies everything that teachers will do and will not do during a six-hour-57 ½-minute workday but also requires that teachers be paid based on how long they have been on the job. Once they’ve been teaching for three years and judged satisfactory in a process that invariably judges all but a few of them satisfactory, they are ensured lifetime tenure.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/23/magazine/23Race-t.html?exprod=myyahoo

[wtmusic]

1. Is there any other job in the country which offers lifetime tenure?

The NEA's demands are out of control.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

6. Its not really tenure...its equivalent to career-permanent status with the Feds

Similar status for States too

[Hannah Bell]

28. False.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

36. True, compare it to college tenure...speaking as one who has had both

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tonysam]

15. Bullshit. Complete and total bullshit.

There is NO such fucking thing as "lifetime" tenure. You don't have a job for life in public ed. It isn't the same thing as in higher education. I know because I was wrongfully shitcanned after receiving "tenure."

What is wrong is your attitude towards teachers.

[wtmusic]

17. Over a ten year span (1995-2005 ) 112 Los Angeles Unified teachers

faced termination. Out of 43,000, with a 51% graduation rate.

Tenure Keeps Annual Teacher Firing Rates Too Low

* Chicago: Principals say that 83 percent of bad tenured teachers “rarely or never” get fired
* Columbus: Teachers union admits tenured teacher firings can cost up to $50,000
* Dallas: 0.78 percent of tenured teachers are terminated annually
* Idaho: It can cost “$100,000 or $200,000” to get rid of a bad tenured teacher
* Illinois (not including Chicago): Two out of 95,500 terminated -- it costs $219,504 to fire a bad teacher
* Los Angeles: Eleven out of 43,000 considered for termination
* Newark: About one out of 3,000
* New Jersey: Five out of more than 100,000 terminated
* New York City: Ten out of 55,000
* New York State: Seventeen tenured teachers annually -- it costs $128,941 to fire a bad teacher
* Tucson: About one out of 2,300

http://teachersunionexposed.com/protecting.cfm

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Starry Messenger]

30. That page is s RW front group.

Teacher's Unions Exposed is a page generated by a right wing anti-labor front group.

http://teachersunionexposed.com/

If you scroll down you see a credit for "Center for Union Facts" which is listed on SourceWatch as a RW group.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Center_for_Union_Facts

http://www.bermanexposed.org/

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Rick_Berman


Rick Berman

Richard B. (Rick) Berman is a former labor management attorney and restaurant industry executive who currently works as a lobbyist for the food, alcoholic beverage and tobacco industries. He is the sole owner of Berman & Co., which sponsors many front groups that defend his corporate clients' interests by attacking their critics, allowing his paying clients to remain out of public view.

He is the President, Executive Director and Director of the Center for Consumer Freedom (CCF). CCF's 2005 IRS return states that Berman works 23 hours a week for the group for which he is paid $18,000. <1> In spite of its name, CCF is more concerned about industry than the consumer. He is also the Executive Director and President of the Employment Policies Institute Foundation the American Beverage Institute and the Center for Union Facts. <2>

According to a July 31, 2006, profile of Berman in USA Today, his company has 28 employees and takes in $10 million dollars a year, but "only Berman and his bookkeeper wife" know how much of the $10 million ends up in their own pockets. <2>

Rick Berman has earned the nicknames "Dr. Evil," the "Conservatives' Weapon of Mass Destruction" and the "Astroturf Kingpin" for his repeated use of the strategy of forming non-profit front groups that advocate for the interests big business while shielding those same businesses from disclosing financial support for these efforts.<3><4>


Just FYI. Usually don't see those quoted for "facts" on a Democratic web site.

[Catshrink]

31. Rachel often goes after Rick Berman

He's one of her favorite targets.

[Starry Messenger]

32. Yeppers.

He's a lowlife. Strange to see him used as a source on DU. I usually only see links to those sites on RW forums. I thought the use of front groups like this to discredit lefty values would be pretty common knowledge here.

[wtmusic]

34. Phew, that's a relief.

11 out of 43,000 teachers fired? That's ridiculous! That couldn't be true...the teachers unions couldn't be that powerful and intimidating!

Now I'm sure you have facts that contradict theirs too...that's what's really important, isn't it?

Thanks.

[Starry Messenger]

35. Sorry, I don't talk to people who use Republican "facts".

Find a real source, then we'll talk.

[wtmusic]

38. So you admit those figures are possibly correct? nt

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wtmusic]

43. That may be.

Now, personal attacks aside...is it true you cannot refute any of the information I've presented?

[Hannah Bell]

48. she doesn't have to refute right-wing propaganda. i'm not sure

why a democrat would even post that crap.

[wtmusic]

She doesn't have to refute anything.

Both of you can't refute anything, but maybe that's beside the point.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hannah Bell]

73. the material you demand refutation for comes from a right-wing propaganda site.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=219&topic_id=24848&mesg_id=24936

[Hannah Bell]

46. nobody believes a word you or your pals are posting.

furthermore, even you guys don't believe it.

you're just catapulting the propaganda.

[wtmusic]

49. Still waiting for some facts from you

or can I just expect more ad hominems and attitude? :eyes:

[Hannah Bell]

50. you offered no facts, just right-wing propaganda, if someone posts right-wing propaganda,

one must come to the obvious logical conclusion.

[wtmusic]

51. It's not propaganda because you say it is.

I've provided links, you've provided nothing but attitude. My obvious logical conclusion is that it's just something that threatens your cush livelihood.

Is that it?

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Starry Messenger]

72. Cush livelihood

Oh my aching sides. You've provided links to a right wing website that you find legit. That goes beyond attitude friendo.

[mzteris]

79. i don't believe this one's even a teacher

I could be incorrect about that, but from what I remember, nope.

[Hannah Bell]

81. why do you concern yourself with me WHEN YOU HAVE ME ON IGNORE?

I thought the point of "ignore" WAS TO IGNORE PEOPLE, BUT YOU JUST CAN'T STOP TALKING TO ME & ABOUT ME.

why don't you just take me off ignore, since you love me so much?

smooches

[Starry Messenger]

76. No. They are right wing numbers.

[justin_unionfacts]

40. Teachers Unions Protect Bad Teachers

Hello Everyone,

I'm not going to waste my time correcting the many factual inaccuracies about my organization.

You can disagree with us all you like. You can call us childish names. What you can't do is question our facts.

The information on our website is drawn from formal freedom of information act requests sent to individual school districts, public news reports, and the Department of Education's Student and Staffing Survey (SASS). Specifically, I invite you to click through our state profiles and observe the teacher turnover rate that we report. (For instance: Illinois fires less than .1 percent of its teachers for cause each year.) That is drawn directly from the federal government's SASS.

J. Justin Wilson
Center for Union Facts

[Starry Messenger]

42. Is that really you Justin?

What a riot. :D

[Catshrink]

86. I doubt it.

[justin_unionfacts]

96. Yes it is really me.

Proof: http://laborpains.org/yes-it-is-really-me/

Also, layoffs are completely different than firings. Second, unions abide by the rule of first in, last out. Put another way, in a tenure/seniority system the most senior employee is the last to be laid off. Here is an article from the NYT explaining the union's position: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/25/education/25seniority.html

[tonysam]

99. No, that's not perceived as the difference.

Being "laid off" is perceived to be NOT your fault, while being "fired" is. However, many, many people use the terms interchangeably.

But "firing" teachers happens ALL the time and for thousands upon thousands of teachers who are NOT RIF'd. Being RIF'd IS governed by union contracts. I explained that quite clearly in my post above.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tonysam]

62. Well, "Justin," the .1 percent number is extremely misleading

Let me tell you as a teacher who was wrongly shitcanned by a school district. There are several ways schools get rid of teachers without "formally" "firing" them, but they are still terminated.

Non-tenured teachers are "at-will," which means they can be thrown out for any reason whatsoever. If a principal doesn't like the way you dress, you can be let go. Non-tenured are "non-renewed," which means they don't get a continuing contract, but in fact they are FIRED. It's the same thing.

"Tenured" teachers who are targeted for dismissal are quite common, thousands a year. What happens when a school district administrator wants to get rid of a teacher is merely trump up allegations, which an administrator can do knowing the "due process" hearings are highly rigged affairs, as I can tell you from experience. The principal harasses a teacher, often a veteran teacher with many years in the district, so that teacher will either resign or retire. If a principal actually goes through with a dismissal, there are all kinds of ways to resolve the situation without going through the expense of a hearing. Almost always these teachers take a resignation in lieu of a dismissal, whether or not they have committed "misconduct," which is usually a bullshit charge. They will get a settlement with perhaps a good recommendation from the district in order for them to further their careers, although states like California and Oregon prohibit districts from doing this, as it is seen as a lie. Teachers will almost always settle, even though taking a settlement prohibits them from getting unemployment insurance, which is the ONLY reason districts do this besides saving money on hearings.

Teachers are let go all of the time and for all kinds of stupid reasons. I hate when people promote lies about "tenure" and teacher firings because I know it is unadulterated bullshit.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mbperrin]

83. Here's 5000 teachers, administrators, and counselors being fired in LA.

http://www.takepart.com/news/2009/04/15/massive-layoffs-hit-los-angeles-school-district

Massive Layoffs Hit Los Angeles School District

Jenny Inglee | 1 year ago | Comments (1) | Flag this
Last night the Los Angeles Unified School District Board of Education voted 4-3 in favor of laying off 5000 teachers, school administrators, counselors and other employees. The Board of Education believes this is the only solution in order to close the $596.1 million budget deficit for next year. I understand there needs to be cuts but I challenge the school board to tell me how putting 5000 people out of work and lowering our children's level of education is the only solution.

Before these catastrophic cuts Los Angeles schools were already at a disadvantage. California ranks 47th in the nation in per pupil spending. Today there are 879 schools in the Los Angeles Unified School District. In 2007, only 111 of these school met or exceeded the California Department of Education’s Academic Performance Index.

A study of 9th Street Elementary, a public school in downtown Los Angeles shows in 2007, students averaged a 629 on their API test vs. the API goal of 800. Many private schools in Los Angeles average in the 900s. Out of the 337 children attending 9th Street Elementary, 245 are English language learners. These students are under performing and at a disadvantage because English is not their first language. These statistics will not improve if we take away teachers and increase class size. Not to mention, after the layoffs some schools may not have full time principals. The LA Times covered this story today and reported that Spanish speaking parents expressed concern about school security if principals are not on campus throughout the day. I understand California is in a world of hurt financially but this is inexcusable.

[wtmusic]

87. Layoffs not the same as firings

and thanks to UTLA/AFT teachers with the most seniority, not the most highly-rated, retain their jobs. That means if you have five years on the job but another teacher has more (even if you're a Teacher of the Year and they're incompetent) - you're on the street.

[Hannah Bell]

90. speaking of flatulence

[mbperrin]

92. Actually, layoffs go the other way. Higher priced experienced teachers

are replace with cheaper newbies, and this is also done with programs like Teach for America. It's all union-busting under another name.

Oh, and the difference between fired and laid off? No paycheck for either one, so I believe it's a difference without a distinction.

[wtmusic]

95. Actually, you're wrong.

Not the policy in my district - tenured (yes, tenured) teachers keep their $$$ jobs and better qualified newbies get the boot.

No distinction between fired and laid off? A perfect illustration of the problem - teachers don't see any distinction between competence and incompetence. Not all about the paycheck, you know?

[mbperrin]

101. Well, without a paycheck, TXU Electric is reluctant to keep my lights on,

Wells Fargo won't let me drive my van, tax authorities will take my house away for not paying and so on.

So, yes, paychecks very important.

Again, there is NO tenure in Texas. And in your case, if they're truly newbies, how do you know they're better qualified? They haven't done anything yet.

[wtmusic]

103. In many cases they aren't more qualified

In some, they are.

My daughter had a teacher who had tenure, and here is what happened nearly every day in his class: he would give students a reading assignment then go into his office and play on the internet. Parents complained, and nothing happened. Meanwhile, 20 teachers at his school got pink slips, some who were less experienced but showed up at school with a lesson plan and worked their asses off.

Where's the justice in that?

Paychecks are important, as is competence. Every teacher is getting the first, not every student is getting the second.

[tonysam]

98. It really is, but of course employers split hairs because

being laid off means it isn't "your" fault, while you must have done something wrong for an employer to terminate employment--"fired." I mean it's ALWAYS the employees' fault--never the employer's.

Try explaining my situation on an application which asks yes or no questions like the following for a CLASSIFIED job:

1) Have you ever been placed on a plan of assistance?  YES  NO
2) Have you ever been disciplined for work performance?  YES  NO
3) Have you ever been released or discharged, or resigned
upon threat of discharge, from an educational position
because of unsatisfactory service?  YES  NO
4) Have you ever resigned from an education position
while under investigation for misconduct?  YES  NO
5) Have you ever been released from a position with an educational
entity based upon any reports of sexual conduct?  YES  NO


No explanation is allowed. This is just to screen people out, nothing more, nothing less. Questions 1-3 would be a doozy for me, because I was supposed to have been with the first two questions, but the district didn't do it, and for number 3, it wasn't about my "performance" but about my fucking sick leave.

[LARED]

2. The reality is that the public education system is is trouble and

the teachers unions need be part of the solution. Having contracts mandating a "six-hour-57 ½-minute workday but also requires that teachers be paid based on how long they have been on the job" is not helping. Treating teachers like factory workers is not useful nor in the interest of students or teachers. Teachers are knowledge workers and should insist they be treated as such.

[nosmokes]

3. Find me ONE teacher that works only the hours s/he is in the classroom.

Just ONE.

And the public ed system is not in trouble because of overpaid teachers, that I'll guarantee.

[wtmusic]

8. Pin a medal on your chest

then show me anyone who works only the hours they're paid for.

Then show me another job where you can get lifetime tenure.

Then show me a job where additional education MANDATES a pay increase.

[mbperrin]

84. In Texas, all teaching contracts are 10 month one year only with no expectation

of renewal. Every April, you find out whether or not you will have a job with the district for the coming year.

Administrators get 5 year contracts.

And my $27,000 Master's degree which makes me a better teacher (and that's why I got it) pays $800 more per year than a bachelor's only. So in 34 years, I could get my money back. Of course, since I came to teaching late at age 45, I'll be mandatorily retired at 65.

Salesmen of every stripe work only the hours they're paid for, and service folks in the oilfield work only the hours they're paid for. I know - I did those for 20 years before I began teaching.

[wtmusic]

88. Most salespeople never get a contract, health insurance, or a pension.

I don't resent good teachers making good money. What I resent is all teachers - good and bad - making good money.

[mbperrin]

93. ALL salespeople are agents of the company, empowered to commit the

company to binding agreements. They certainly do have rather stringent contracts, whether life insurance, truck tires, wellhead equipment, or swimming pools, all of which I have done.

I pay for my pension through the Teacher Retirement System in Texas, at a higher rate than Social Security, and at 65, I'll retire with about 40% of my salary per year. HOWEVER, the 29 years I paid into Social Security, including the 10 years of self-employment, where I paid DOUBLE, are all for nothing. Because I'm a teacher, I can't draw the SS I paid for all those years. I do draw the vested commissions from my life insurance to this day, and will, as long as those folks have the coverage.

Our health insurance is $760/month for the two of us, and with deductibles and copays, our out of pocket is around $10,000 per year for the chronic age-related conditions we enjoy as a privilege of living longer, so that's not really free, either. The district pays $240/month for us and nothing else.

The answer to hating folks with good jobs is to get one, not to make all jobs equally crappy.

[wtmusic]

94. I have a wonderful job, thank you.

I work hard and I make good money.

A lot of incompetent teachers don't work hard and make good money. Not only do I pay them, but my kids have to put up with them.

I guess it makes your job "crappy" if I think they should be fired. I must "hate" you because you also have a good job.

I hope you don't teach logic. :eyes:

[mbperrin]

102. Nice job of ignoring all my responses to your questions and statements.

Little to be gained from discussion with an avoider with an emotional axe to grind and no facts.

Have a lovely day and a wonderful life!

[wtmusic]

104. OK your responses are, um, duly noted.

You want facts? Here you go.

In my post above, #17, I present some statistics which were obtained from another website. There have been many attempts to discredit them by "poisoning the well", but no one can really come out and prove that they're false.

If these statistics are indeed true, wouldn't you agree that the system is broken, and that teachers' unions wield a disproportionate amount of power over the education process? (Now we'll see who's avoiding.)

If I have an emotional axe to grind, that's just a symptom of seeing what I view as exploitation of the system and the kids within it, and I'm not ashamed of it at all.

[tonysam]

97. A lot of us who taught in midlife aren't getting much in the way of those "cushy" pensions

Since I was wrongfully thrown out by the district, I managed to get just five years in with Nevada PERS. As I am going to collect on the retirement next year--I hope the district didn't screw me out of it--it'll come to the princely sum of around $300 a month. There is no point waiting nine years for it to get the "full" benefit of less than $500 when I will surpass that amount eventually provided I live long enough to do so.

Unfortunately, I will have some of my SS reduced since I haven't worked in SS-covered employment for thirty years thanks to WEP (I am short about three years). I hope Congress finally reforms this so that people who are not getting big pensions aren't penalized for having worked in public employment in midlife.

[Dinger]

9. Thank You

It is not possible to teach, plan lessons, write newsletters, do grades, and more in an 8-hr day. Our school year is done on June 9th, the next week I will be teaching a class to other teachers on Mohican History. The next week, I start a summer school class, which runs for 5 weeks. I enjoy that, and this summer I the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel will be there to do a story on my class. Look for that some time in early July. The following 2 weeks I will be taking a 2-week grad class. By then it'll be mid-August, and I better be in my classroom getting ready for the new school year. I'm not paid for that either, but it's something I do gladly so I am prepared. I am a proud union member, and we (union) do everything we can so that students we teach get the best education possible. We stop at nothing to make that happen. It is a goddamn insult when anybody, especially those not in the field of education, tell me I'm nothing but a greedy, lazy, no-good-union member teacher. Shove it.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LARED]

23. No one saId any of the things you are impling nt

[mzteris]

4. six-hour-57.5 minutes

doncha think maybe they should be a little more concerned with the WHAT rather than parsing freakin' minutes?!?

[Hannah Bell]

27. just possibly they can be concerned with both. you seem to have a problem with unions,

contracts, & labor protections.

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. The contract is NOT the problem

As the other poster said, teachers don't work contract hours. Anyone who believes that hasn't been in a school in a loooong time.

The problem, from a labor perspective, is the need for such a contract. If teachers were treated like professionals, they wouldn't be insisting on contracts with work day length clauses.

If the people who employ the teachers really truly cared about the kids and placed their needs above everything else, the teachers wouldn't need to negotiate contracts that outline what teachers should and should not be required to do during the school day.

Without teacher contracts, kids wouldn't get Art, Music, P.E., Library or Computer. Teachers in my district went on strike twice in the 70s to have these courses added to the school day.

Classrooms would not have adequate supplies.

There would be no parent teacher conferences for parents who work during the day. It was once common to have conferences during the school day. Some schools scheduled them while the children were still in school. Teachers were expected to sit at their desks and meet with parents while children sat quietly and worked at their desks.

No, in my experience administrators absolutely can NOT be trusted to do what is best for kids without a contract that regulates the teachers' workday. Been there done that. It was a mess.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

7. Actually it is a part of the problem

The public education system is driven by the industrial model, enshrined in that contract, and that is clearly part of the problem. That has lead to many of the current mindsets and problems.

[YvonneCa]

106. But now they want to replace it with...

...the McDonald's fast-food model. :7 How is that better?

[mzteris]

20. I agree- these should be

"exempt positions".

You get paid to do a job. You get paid a lot. You work an entire day and entire year. You get your PDO's, of course, but you get paid.

This whole "teachers work part-time" bs needs to stop. The whole teachers being paid like "part-time" workers needs to stop, too.

I'm not sure what "teacher contracts" have to do with kids "specials" though. (And they should have a damn lot more of THOSE, too!! while I'm at it.)

Teachers should be treated like and expected to act like professionals. Teacher empowerment in getting the job done!!

(Some things, we DO agree on...)

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Starry Messenger]

22. Well everyone already said what I would have said.

My only addition is that I think all workers are "knowledge" workers. All workers should be respected. We're the backbone of the country. Is a factory worker's life and time less precious? So strange.

[Dinger]

11. Somewhere In That Article It Says That Teachers' Unions

are 25% of all unions in this country. Get them pissed at your own risk politicians. That includes you Obama.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Orlandodem]

18. I agree. Cut off their lifeblood - money! If these other people are so concerned

about whether teachers will give to Obama and vote for Obama maybe they need to tell Obama to stop pissing us off!

If they don't, then these other Democrats can suffer with the rest of us under a Republican president!

[mzteris]

21. wow. THAT'll show 'em, eh?

Let's make EVERYONE SUFFER EVEN MORE. . . yeah, that's the ticket right there.

Way to win friends and influence enemies, too.

Run, SARAH, RUN!!!

[Hannah Bell]

24. yes, always a good idea to fund politicians who plan to make you unemployed.

very smart politics, there. fund them & write them strongly worded letters, that's the ticket.

[wtmusic]

25. Hopefully Obama will only make the ones unemployed who deserve to be

Bad teachers should be fired, shouldn't they? :shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

26. "bad" teachers *are* fired, after exercise of contractual due process.

unlike, e.g. the leadership & foot soldiers of major financial houses, oil companies that kill everything in the gulf of mexico, and presidents who lie us into war.

but oooooooooooh, it's them "bad" teachers.

yes, i'm sure obama's ed policy is aimed at only the "bad" teachers.

like the entire staff of central high, plus its janitors & lunch ladies. all "bad".

[wtmusic]

33. 11 teachers out of 43,000?

Spending $220K to go through the "contractual process"?

Why wasn't this teacher fired? Seems like the "process" needs a little fine tuning.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/may/03/local/me-teachers3

[Hannah Bell]

44. i don't consider media propaganda to be gospel anymore, your

mileage may vary.

[wtmusic]

47. How about the Los Angeles Board of Education?

Gospel enough for you? (Your mileage may vary) :rofl:

http://www.latimes.com/media/acrobat/2009-05/46659480.pdf

[Hannah Bell]

52. let's be clear what you just posted. it's a judgement that the district

didn't follow its own policy or due process when it moved to dismiss the teacher, e.g.:

2A. It is our unanimous conclusion that the Commission has no jurisdiction to consider whether Respondent’s conduct established in this case was unprofessional pursuant to Education Code section 44932, subdivision (a)(1),3 because the notice required by that section was not given to Respondent before the District began the process of his dismissal.


now, right-wingers might have a problem with that.

I don't. I happen to be in favor of due process.

just like the founding fathers.

[wtmusic]

53. So you think a teacher who teased a suicidal student is fit for the job?

Just want to be clear on that.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wtmusic]

58. No, I don't.

And as a matter of fact, telling me you're alerting violates DU rules.

Might want to brush up.

[Hannah Bell]

57. i think in america we determine the facts through due process, then make a judgement.

you apparently prefer other forms of "justice".

just want to be clear about that.

[wtmusic]

60. The facts are not in dispute.

Do you feel a teacher who teases a suicidal student is fit for the job?

No dodges, please.

[Hannah Bell]

61. "the facts are not in dispute" - lol.

so say the supporters of tyranny down through history.

i prefer democratic due process, thanks all the same.

do you?

no dodges, please.

[wtmusic]

63. Another dodge.

Do you think a teacher who teases a suicidal student is fit for the job?

Answer the question, please.

[Hannah Bell]

64. answer the question, please? democracy or fascism, which do you prefer?

[wtmusic]

65. Sorry, that 5-year-old turnaround shit doesn't swim with me.

You can't answer a simple ethically-obvious question because it might have implications for your livelihood. All about the bottom line, isn't it - even when a student's life is at stake?

You've provided the perfect example of why teachers' unions are going down. Ignored. :hi:

[Hannah Bell]

68. sorry, your lack of support for democratic due process doesn't swim with me.

nor does your 5-year-old insistence that "the facts are not in dispute" before any unbiased fact-finding has taken place.

nor your juvenile insistence i "answer the question" under such circumstances: precisely the tactics of fascism: facts are assumed without process, & accused must "answer the question" about the already-assumed to aid with the conviction.

pure right-wing tactics, pure right-wing "justice".

you think i care if supporters of such shit put me on ignore?

i take it as a badge of honor.

[tonysam]

66. It isn't just "bad" teachers who are fired, by the way.

Older teachers, teachers who are whistleblowers, good teachers, teachers who are a threat to moronic or vindictive principals, all kinds of teachers are "fired" all the time.

School districts are highly political institutions. Not every tenured teacher thrown out goes through a due process hearing. In fact, most do not. They either hire a lawyer to sue the district, or, more often, they take a settlement, which means they can't sue and they can't draw unemployment insurance but they naively think it will help their careers. It doesn't, as school districts require disclosure in their "weeding out" questions.

[wtmusic]

67. Understood

but every job situation is highly political. Your at-risk examples would apply to just about any vocation on the planet, and there is legal recourse for wrongful termination for anyone.

[Hannah Bell]

69. uh, no, due process BEFORE arbitrary dismissal is the american way.

[tonysam]

70. And actually, if districts rig the hearings, which they can and do

since these hearings are held on school property, the dismissals ARE arbitrary.

More often than not "due process" hearings in public education are kangaroo courts. Just about the only ones in the country with even a remotely fair process are those in NYC.

Watch "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" where Jimmy Stewart goes through an "inquiry" on trumped-up charges near the end of the film. I laughed out loud because it was almost EXACTLY like what I went through in my "due process" hearing.

[Hannah Bell]

71. if it's rigged, it ain't due process.

[tonysam]

74. It's called "due process" whether or not it IS due process

Almost all school districts employ kangaroo hearings to dispose of teachers. A lawyer friend of mine told me she never recommended her clients go through them because you "never win them."

They are a big waste of time.

[Hannah Bell]

75. orwellian appelation regardless: not due process if it's rigged.

and the fact that it's rigged isn't an argument to do away with it, but to stop rigging it.

[tonysam]

77. The problem is the rigging will never be done away with--not every state has arbitrators

who hear these cases, and these arbitrators are NOT impartial. They are paid for by the districts and the "unions" which are all too often in bed with the districts. The arbitrators don't get asked back if they rule in a teacher's favor, which almost NEVER happens. An arbitrator can disregard administrative law knowing the teacher will not be able to appeal it most of the time because the teacher has to pay for a lawyer up front since there are no damages to collect. A teacher would have to have tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousand of dollars to appeal the decision through the court of appeals. Administrative law really doesn't operate at all like criminal or civil law, as I found out.

The teacher doesn't get to pick the arbitrator. The union-provided attorney can limit witnesses for your side or not even allow them, as happened in my case. The district's witnesses can commit perjury, can forge documents, can tamper with witnesses, knowing there is no recourse for the teacher.

These hearings are SUPPOSED to be legal proceedings, but they are treated like mock trials.

This is one area where there needs to be REAL reform in education.

[mzteris]

80. but mosty teachers who shouldn't be in a classroom.

You see how damn difficult it is to "get rid of a teacher". They have to screw up pretty damn badly to get the boot.

[Hannah Bell]

82. says walmart.

[Dinger]

85. Touché Hannah

[FBaggins]

37. It's more than that.

They may be 25% of union membership, but they have historically wielded more than 25% of the union political power (at least, within the Democratic party). That political power has waned as union membership nationally has declined... but there's a chance that they will speak loudly in the coming elections if the administration doesn't get its act together.

[Orlandodem]

12. From Obama down to state legislators and local school boards, I hope teachers

have these people in their sights in the next 2 to 4 years. They must pay. I am a parenta and I don't want my child's education turned into nothing but standardized tests.

[Dinger]

13. If They Think This Will Be The Unions' Last Stand, They Ought To Think Again

Unions don't lay down that easy.

[mzteris]

89. Lie

down.

[Hannah Bell]

91. speaking of 5th-grade tactics

[donco6]

100. Well, they better start doing something.

Because states are lining up around these "anti-tenure" laws. Colorado fell this year. Who's next?

[tonysam]

105. By the way, anti-teacher asshole Steven Brill, who wrote a hit piece against

NYC teachers in the New Yorker last fall writing about tenure and "due process" hearings, is the author of this pile of shit.

He's not qualified to write anything about education.