Positive side of Christianity

[MellowOne]

Christians are the largest persecuted group in the world. But millions of people lives have been transformed by their faith in God/Jesus. Lives that were out-of-control,troubled, drug addicts, alcoholics, broken marriages or simply without direction. It doesn't take much effort to read or hear about someone who has turned their life around after finding Jesus.

So why do we seldom hear praise for all the lives that have transformed because of Christianity instead of the constant basing and ridicule?

Christians aren't trying to shove God down your throat, they are excited about what has happened to them and want you to find it as well. I'm aware that there are many Christians that give Christianity a bad name, but there are those who are sincere and making the world a better place.

[cleanhippie]

1. "Christians are the largest prosecuted group in the world". NO, they are not.

You just think they are.

[MellowOne]

5. Read this

http://www.examiner.com/holy-spirit-in-national/news-roundup-persecution-of-christians

Why not comment on the fact that drug addicts are out of the gutter but now holding a job and living a productive life because of Christianity?

[Lucian]

7. The guy who wrote that article calls himself a "Holy Spirit Examiner."

He's a Xtian author and speaker. Please.

:eyes:

[cleanhippie]

19. BECAUSE of christianity? If thats the case, then child-raping priests do that BECAUSE of it too.

Why not comment on that?

[MellowOne]

25. Because I was commenting on the positive side

Just because someone wears the hat of a Christian doesn't necessarily mean much. Works speak lounder than words.

[cleanhippie]

46. Exactly my point.

Being a christian makes one neither good nor bad, but if you are going to attribute good acts to it, you must attribute the bad acts, too.

[Goblinmonger]

61. So....

Christian having a seemingly good impact means Christianity is AWESOME.
Christian having a bad impact means they aren't really a Christian.

Got it.

[Lucian]

2. Hmmm...

Christians aren't trying to shove God down your throat

Tell that to the preacher guy who comes on my campus and tells me I'm going to hell if I don't repent. :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: Hell, tell that to the RW whackjobs who preach about god everywhere they go.

OP Fail, and fail miserably.

[MellowOne]

14. I seriously doubt

that he told you that you were going to hell. That's God's call, no one else has that right of judgment.

[cleanhippie]

20. You seriously doubt it? What, do you live under a rock?

You know, denial is not a river in Egypt.

[bengalherder]

29. Dude, I've seen that too.

Right in front of my eyes in 3-d life all week long, a guy screaming at the top of his lungs about how we were all going to hell. When he took a breather his wife stepped in.

What rock do you live under? Christians wish hell on others all the time. Of course the theological joke known only to those who have ears to hear is that ONLY god can judge, but it doesn't seem to stop the abusers. They are counting on people not looking it up for themselves and taking their word for it

[MellowOne]

33. You are making generalized statements

Christians DO NOT wish hell on anybody. They only want to help you avoid it.

[bengalherder]

44. OK, you are now taking the role of cultie abuser

Do as I say and you will not go to hell/ have an eternity/live forever/ get paradise with pearly walls and virgins.They ALL say that, from L Ron Hubbard to Mr Moon to the FDLS to the Pat Robertsons. Then they tell you what they want you to do and teach you jack shit about spirituality, they brainwash. This is for your own good, they say, do as I say....

You are crossing the line of blackmailing people with death-something no-one living knows about.

That street annoyance wants no more than to look at the tits of pretty girls as he damns them for impropriety. What the fuck does this have to do with the sublimity of christian spiritual experience? What good does badgering people do?

You don't need a god or anybody to be a good person and if after death some god is only going to take my faith in him as token while disregarding that I was a decent person in life, well he, she or it can just get fucked.

[immoderate]

45. They invented it.

It scares the shit out of people. Then they give their money.

--imm

[anAustralianobserver]

81. You are in a traumatised state. I was exactly like you once.

Hell is the belief in the power of Hell. Believing that an infinitely merciful and powerful God set things up such that billions of humans get infinitely punished for finite wrongdoing.

It doesn't make sense at all. It is a dissociated state and you can't even tell when someone (like me) is trying to help you see it! You get paranoid and think Satan is talking through me to lead you astray. Well I guarantee you one day you will see that I am right - and you will cry and get angry and feel foolish at how many years you wasted. Then you will feel a huge sense of relief.

You don't think you are trying to manipulate and psychologically abuse people (and your children if you have them) by threatening them with hell, but *in effect* that's what you are doing. It's not God telling you to educate people about hell. It's your own dissociated voice - what Jesus called 'Satan'. (If that's not what Jesus meant, it's what he was trying to say!)

When you realise that historically our culture has been traumatised by these beliefs you will find that that voice actually starts supporting you and giving you the answers you really need. You will become more intelligent and loving.

To be theological, you can't be of much help to anyone spiritually unless you understand 'universal salvation'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_reconciliation

It says in the Bible (the 'Word', which is not necessarily the same as the book by the way) that the mercy of the Lord endures forever, so how can there be a hell in the way we were taught?

Having said all that I agree with you there is a positive side to Christianity. The side that expresses what we have in common in Christian forms.

When Jesus said "I am the Way, no one comes to the Father but by Me" - by 'Me', did he mean our common human Soul, or was he saying "It's my way or the highway you naughty non-Christians!" ?

[LAGC]

101. As darkstar pointed out in another thread...

Belief in "hell" is the ultimate grave-dance.

[Deep13]

117. Yeah they do.

Every week in every Evangelical church in the country. It's all about hell for them.

One told my wife that Satan was working through me because I did not agree with her claims.

[Orrex]

3. The most positive thing that Christians have done for me is to give me a day off on December 25th

[klook]

Hey, this reminds me --

It's time to start gearing up for the annual War on Christmas!

[Orrex]

99. This war calls for heavy artillery

[klook]

4. Largest prosecuted group?

Who knew?

[MellowOne]

15. It was a typo

Get over it.

[Lost-in-FL]

37. One can only wish. nt

[Angry Dragon]

6. How about all the politicians and people out there that

are trying to turn this country into a theocracy??
Is that not trying to ram something down the throats of people??
And which god is this country suppose to follow if they do??
The catholic god, the fundy god, the baptist god, the lutheran god??

So many gods out there, which one to choose..........

[humblebum]

9. Chances of the US becoming an actual theocracy are slim to none.

What will prevent that is the Constitution. And that will also prevent it from becoming an atheocracy.

[Lost-in-FL]

21. I am fine with atheocracy

a-theocracy would be the total opposite of Theocracy

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14568a.htm


Theocracy - A form of civil government in which God himself is recognized as the head. The laws of the commonwealth are the commandments of God, and they are promulgated and expounded by the accredited representatives of the invisible Deity, real or supposed—generally a priesthood. Thus in a theocracy civic duties and functions form a part of religion, implying the absorption of the State by the Church or at least the supremacy of the latter over the State.

[humblebum]

32. Some do yearn for the old Soviet Union. NT

[Lost-in-FL]

36. Tee hee…

:rofl:

Maybe you want to use the term "State Atheism" instead of "atheocracy".

Some of us yearn not to become a religious third world country like Afghanistan but to become an enriched secular democracy like Sweden, Norway, France, etc. Spain is still a very religious country but they seem to embrace a truly secular government. Unfortunately, I can see us going the way of Afghanistan and not the Soviet Union (which sounds better than Afghanistan if you ask me).

[laconicsax]

35. LOL! Once again, you show your profound ignorance.

The first amendment mandates an atheocracy. That is, a state that does not respect religious law.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

No laws can be based on religion, period. How do you like living in this atheocracy, humblebum?

[humblebum]

38. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I think it can safely

be said that yours is an extreme minority opinion. And I see nothing in the amendment that confirms your assessment of it.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" = There shall be no established state religion. That includes atheism.

"... free exercise thereof" = free exercise thereof.

And yes, concerning the 1st Amendment, atheism is to be treated as a religion, as was declared by the Court.

[laconicsax]

55. Uh huh, that's what I thought you'd say.

You're every bit the atheist I am save for one god, so I'll defer to your judgement on how not believing in a god constitutes a religion. I'm sure you've spent a handful on minutes on that.

[humblebum]

56. Don't blame me. The Court made the ruling. And believe your opinions

are not even close to being universal.

[laconicsax]

57. Like it or not, you live in an atheocracy, AKA a secular democracy.

[humblebum]

66. God bless America. nt

[LARED]

77. What people are trying to turn the USA into a Theocracy?

Are they getting elected to office?

Are they getting on ballets?

Anyone working on nullifying the Constitution?

Let me know they I will start to get worried.

[Angry Dragon]

78. I believe I said politicians and people

politicians such as bachmann, parry and others
people calling for changing the Constitution, eliminating the fourteenth amendment
churches and people calling gays evil and immoral because the bible tells them so

all kinds of attacks on people because their religion tells them so

the mess we find this country in did not start last night, it started at least under raygun
and continues through today. So it is the little bites that you do not notice until it is
harder to stop the killing bite

What would you call it when people say that we have to do things a certain way because their god tells them that is the way to do things??

[LARED]

79. Well that depends on what God is telling them to do

If God is telling them we need to kill people then I'm not clear on what God is talking to them.

If God is telling them we need to love your neighbor them I pretty much OK with that.

Getting back to your Theocracy concern, I'm pretty confident if our Republic fails, instituting a Theocracy in its place is way down on the list of options.

[xfundy]

8. Prosecuted, er, Persecuted by who, exactly?

Why, all them eeeeevil gays, blacks, Jews, muslims.... ad infinitum.

It's not "persecution" when someone asks you to stop babblling about an invisible man over and over and over again, and expecting them to finally believe you.

[MellowOne]

12. It was a typo

I fixed it.

[AmericaIsGreat]

10. This is not a difficult question to answer

Transforming because you have convinced yourself to believe borderline insane propositions about the supreme being of the universe personally caring about your problems and who will reward you with eternal life; that's not a transformation that deserves much praise. Not to mention all the people who "find Jesus" but continue their bad habits/behavior, just while believing in Jesus.

And the overall point remains: religion causes more harm than good, and quite a bit of the good it does cause is either when people convince themselves that the mythology of the Israelites is real, or because people do good acts but with the ulterior motive of trying to recruit people to their faith or garner favor with god so they can get into heaven.

[MellowOne]

13. You totally missed the point of my post.

sigh....

[cleanhippie]

22. It would seem that everyone missed it. Perhaps there just wasn't one to begin with.

[MellowOne]

28. I made a profound point

It's that you choose not to understand. Instead it's so much easier to blame God for everything that is wrong in the world instead of acknowledging all of the good.

[cleanhippie]

47. Thats a nice straw-man you have there. No one "blamed god" for anything.

I, for one, especially do not "blame god", because I don;t believe in your god, or any other, since there is no evidence to support any such thing. None. At. All.

But you can try to shift the goalposts if you want, but I already kicked the ball through the uprights.

[darkstar3]

58. You don't get to choose whether your point is profound.

The impact your point has determines whether it is profound.

[aSpeckofDust]

11. My problem with this is pretty simple...

Why do you need christ to help people? Why not just help people?

[MellowOne]

17. Excellent question

People get into these problems and lifestyles because of hurts and emotions within themselves. We can't heal ourselves just because we want to or wish it upon ourselves especially if deep rooted issues exist. It's almost impossible to explain if you haven't experienced the transformation, but faith offers direction, fulfillment in empty places in your soul and healing for hurts.

[cleanhippie]

24. Ahh, the "transformation." That explains it all. Why didn't you just say so in the first place?

:rofl:

[MellowOne]

26. It's very easy to laugh

at something you don't understand. Seems that your only way to debate this is with ridicule. I expected as much.

[cleanhippie]

48. Oh, I understand it quite well.

That "transformation" you are talking about? Had you been born in a country with a different religion, and were as deeply immersed in it as your are christianity, you would have had the same "transformation", but it would have been a completely different god.

[aSpeckofDust]

30. That didn't actually answer the question..

Why do you need christ to help those in need?

[NMMNG]

98. Oh

You mean it fills that God Shaped Hole in peoples' hearts? Right. :rofl:

[Humanist_Activist]

144. Wouldn't secular therapy be more helpful, it has a better track record, after all...

religion offers false hope, and can cause harm to people's psychological state. At best they are a balm or salve, not a cure of deeply rooted issues people have. Indeed, if such issues are that deeply rooted, professional help would be needed, religious "help" as it were would most likely be much more damaging than helpful.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

16. If "god" wants me to "find Jesus" I'm sure he/she/it will figure out

how to make that happen. In the meantime, I wish his pushy followers would leave me alone and let me choose my own spiritual path, which could include none at all.

BTW, I like Jesus. It's his acolytes, most of whom seem to conveniently ignore his teachings, that irritate me.

[MellowOne]

23. I totally agree with you

"The silent majority" you don't hear much about or hear much from, are the ones making a difference in the world.

Ghandi actually said "I admire Christ, but not Christians" Gandhi liked/loved all people.

[bengalherder]

18. Pagans are pretty persecuted too.

Just try communing with those quaint older pre-christian deities sometime, just see what kind of ignorance happens to you at the hands of others.

I've known a few people who turned their lives around with paganism, buddhism, and simple non-denominational spirituality, so christianity itself is not the end all for social ills.

Christians do tend to shove their God down your throat, at least the annoying ones, and their charity nearly always comes with a catch- like listening to a sermon before you get to eat the soup. I don't really call charity with strings attached charity, but recruitment. You can share all you want, but others can find god for themselves. Those who are sincere had better respect my religion and the fact I usually know their bible (and the apocrypha and the gnostic scrolls,etc) better than they do.

Christianity is the basis of the biggest brainwashing cults going and very few christians have the faintest idea of the real spiritual underpinnings of their religion. In it's most commonly practiced form in the US it is a top down religion with an autocratic, abusively jealous sky-daddy channelled by an ignorant minister with a divinity degree from some mill who takes it upon himself to tell others that god speaks thru him, attributes which I personally find abhorrent and retrograde to the act of 'worship'. Christians have historically been the biggest prosecutors of other christians. Perhaps you should try correcting other christians theologically before you chide the unbelievers, I'm so tired of 'good' christians who overlook the bad behavior of other christian sects just because they're 'all in it together' in this stupid persecution complex, which means jack-all in the US. Don't see christians having to be martyred for their beliefs here. Where is your outrage about how those fellow religionists who love to persecute others despite the words of their avatar, Jesus. Take the mote out your own eye christianity, and we'll talk. In the meantime, the ghosts of boys and girls killed for being gay await.

MY BIL left christianity after his minister started asking him, the church accountant, to fudge the books so he could have a new house, telling him God was speaking to him (the minister) and wanted him to have a new house, car, etc. Another acquaintance of mine was a fucked up junkie in part because of the abuse she suffered from her father and church. The father killed her pets in front of her telling her that they were evil and had no souls, and her minister backed him up. Many years later, her dog got hit by a car, and here I am telling this poor girl that animals aren't evil and they do have spirit, that the world IS spirit and not the soulless evil husk of her father's creed. Christians owe this immensely fucked up girl for her suffering, they're the ones who drove her to the drugs and made her mentally susceptible to all kinds of abuse.

Save yourself, dear, if that's what matters to you, but I bow to no man or god (although I'm maddeningly spiritual) and encourage others to do the same.

And clean your own damn house before asking others in. It's a sty and if I or anyone else tries to straighten it you'll just scream 'persecution'.

[Lost-in-FL]

27. "Christians are the largest persecuted group in the world."

:spray:

:rofl:

Then if gays are persecuted christians and every other religious person out there... wouldn't that make them the largest persecuted?

Or for instance, the fact that christianity served in the past as a promoter of segregation of blacks and open to exploit them through slavery like every other religion... wouldn't that make blacks the largest persecuted groups?

And of course, we all know about the Jewish people persecuted by almost every other judeo-christian franchise, etc, etc...

I can keep going...

[darkstar3]

59. +1

[frogmarch]

31. Are Christians being

persecuted in the U.S? I realize that in some countries Christians are being persecuted - killed, even - but you don't really believe they're being persecuted here in America, do you? If you do, please cite some examples. (Not welcoming door-to-door religion peddlers like Jovies and Mormons doesn't count as persecution against them, but against those whose doors they knock upon.)

[MellowOne]

34. Are you kidding me?

Have you read one positive response to my post? Do you ever wonder why Christians don't discuss their faith at this forum. Because it is always meet with the same childishness instead of an adult conversation.

[bengalherder]

39. We are being adult.

I've seen several valid retorts given already. You already have shown yourself to be ignorant of the hard-sell techniques of your co-religionists. What else are you turning a blind eye to?

None of us have called you names, in fact a few were pretty circumspect because you perhaps aren't a bad person/troll.

But, to be taken seriously here, Christians must clean their own house and get rid of those who distort the words of jesus- some of which, such as the sermon on the mount, were pretty good. We'd love to do it ourselves but can't, because then you'd have reason to claim persecution.

[frogmarch]

40. This is a forum in which to discuss religion. There's a

Christian Group here at DU where dissent is not welcome. Christians who feel persecuted by the variety of opinions here in RT might feel more comfortable there. RT is for everyone, including agnostics and atheists.

You feel persecuted because some posters here in RT disagree with what you wrote in your post? Do you encounter similar "persecution" in the real world?

[rug]

42. I liked your post.

The responses uou've gotten are all too predictable.

[trotsky]

91. On a previous thread, you agreed that the idea of Christians being persecuted in the USA

was a "straw man." Odd that you would like the OP, then. Have you changed your mind?

[laconicsax]

92. You were expecting consistency?

:rofl:

[rug]

150. How could you ever formulate a post without a smiley?

[laconicsax]

151. It might take a post of yours with more than a subject line.

[rug]

149. Not at all. In fact, you've just confirmed the predictability.

[trotsky]

153. You did not address the question, but instead changed the subject.

So yeah, that's pretty predictable.

[Adsos Letter]

52. How does ridicule=persecution? Ridicule is an aspect of Freedom of Expression.

Personal beliefs and opinions aren't guaranteed a "positive response."

If we weren't allowed to post our thoughts, or were somehow open to official sanction because of doing so, then it would be a legitimate matter of persecution.

[Goblinmonger]

63. Because we all didn't bow down to your profoundness?

That is childishness to you? Give me a break. If you don't have a thick enough skin to deal with someone actually asking you to back up what you are saying, then go find an echo chamber somewhere. This isn't one of them.

[cleanhippie]

72. Oh, please. Whenever YOU are ready to have the adult conversation...

please join us in-progress.

An adult conversation is one where criticism and skepticism of unsubstantiated supernatural claims can be taken in and given consideration, not one where every time logic and reason is defied in favor of supernatural thoughts is called "persecution".

Grow up and join the discussion.

[skepticscott]

103. Oh, please

Because you're not getting kudos and adulation for a silly and deeply flawed post about your religion, you consider THAT proof that Christians are highly persecuted in this country? Grow up. You have no idea what real persecution is, and you should be deeply ashamed to try to include yourself among the "persecuted".

Oh, and the reason that Christians don't discuss their faith at this forum is that they have nothing to say in the first place. You're not the first to whine about this, but if you go to the Liberal Christians group, where no criticism or negative posts are permitted, where Christians can have deep and serious discussions of their faith, you'll find...nothing.

[Marrah_G]

136. Persecuted does not mean what you think it means.....

[David Sky]

157. You are really exhibiting a sort of paranoia if you feel that everyone who

doesn't agree with you, looks at issues, facts, and history in a different way than you do, if you feel that is "persecution", I think you need some medication to treat your paranoia.

Are you saying that no Buddhists, Hindu's Muslims or other religious people on this planet CAN ALSO get over their addictions or whatever, and ONLY CHRISTIANITY leads to a healing path?

Try and look at the world with a broader perspective. Christianity is not the only way.

[laconicsax]

62. That chart looks more like this:

[frogmarch]

76. Pac Man! :-)

[Manifestor_of_Light]

41. xtianity is a death cult. Very negative.

Original sin is a LIE.
It's a made up problem with a made up solution - substitutionary atonement.

Completely wrong. Christianity is like a crooked prosecutor that charges you with crimes you didn't commit, just because you are breathing. Christianity destroys people. I became a Christian and nothing changed, nobody helped me. I got suicidal because of the damn sermons about how we were all sinners. I had to leave or I would have crawled in a hole.

ORIGINAL SIN IS A LIE. SUBSTITUTIONARY ATONEMENT IS NOT NECESSARY.

And Jesus probably never existed.

I AM SICK OF CHRISTIANITY AND SICK OF THEM SHOVING THEIR VIEWS DOWN MY THROAT.
I AM SICK OF MY NEIGHbORS WITH THEIR SIX FOOT TALL INSTRUMENTS OF TORTURE IN THEIR YARDS, PROVING THEIR DEVOTION.

I am sick of everyone assuming you are a Christian, specifically one of a few kinds of Protestant. People around here invite you to church, and then are shocked when you are not interested.

Read John bradshaw's "Healing the Shame that Binds You".

These people crush little children's spirits in the name of Gawd. They crush everyone and are relentlessly negative.

My neighbor said "BUDDHISM is VOOOOOOOOODOOOOOOOO!!" I put up a six foot tall privacy fence and never spoke to her again.

[humblebum]

43. Christianity is based on life after death.

Atheism is generally based on nothing after death but being dead.

Pretty clear which one is a "death cult."

[bengalherder]

49. Um, not two choices there.

There are many alternatives to either one, with different shades of 'being' after death believed in.

90% of popular christian iconography shows the dear leader tortured, bloodied and on a cross. The fascination with blood and death is apparent.

And I don't have to be a christian to believe I live on in some quantum form after death, sorry for you if you think I'm damned for not believing in your god exclusively.

[humblebum]

53. If you noticed, I inserted the term "generally". nt

[humblebum]

54. "And I don't have to be a christian to believe I live on in some quantum form after death"

Who said you did? The original charge of being a death cult, however, was directed at Christianity. And how you interpret the death of Jesus is up to you. To me it was that too often innocent people are subjected to all kinds of unfair treatment. His death is also coupled with the Resurrection, which means no matter how bad it gets, there is hope for the future.

[immoderate]

50. Indeed, since only one qualifies as a cult.

"Atheism is generally based on nothing..." except rational thought and current wisdom, maybe.

--imm

[Manifestor_of_Light]

67. Atheism believes you should help people in the HERE AND NOW.

Instead of waiting for heaven.

In fact, it could be argued that atheists who do good (like Bill Gates and his millions donated to charity for health care) are more moral than xtians, because atheists who do good do NOT expect a reward in heaven after they die. They do good because it's the right thing to do. Period.

"Two hands that work do far more good than a thousand hands praying." -- Robert G. Ingersoll

[humblebum]

71. "Atheism believes you should help people in the HERE AND NOW."

What do ya know? Atheism is a belief system after all.

[cleanhippie]

74. Whaddya know, you are wrong again.

[humblebum]

83. Well don't tell me, tell the guy who said "Atheism believes...." nt

[immoderate]

86. Go ahead! Spill the beans! Publish the entire "atheist belief system."

Seriously though, if you ever regain consciousness, recognize that a "lack of belief" is not a belief.

You know, barefoot is not a type of footwear.


--imm

[cleanhippie]

94. Shhhhhhhh! It's a secret!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

96. Let me start over.

Athiests THINK that you should do good for people in the here and now, because we have no evidence of a god or an afterlife.

As in moral values. Jews also place a high value on charity and do not believe in heaven or hell except in a vague sense.

Is that better? Bill Gates is an atheist and the biggest philanthropist in the world.

[immoderate]

97. I hope you mean this for post #83.

Otherwise I'm not communicating very well.


--imm

[Goblinmonger]

64. I don't think you understand the meaning of "death cult."

Hint: it has to do with worshiping the death of someone.

[humblebum]

68. Who worships death? We worship the one who rose from the dead. Otherwise,

I wouldn't worship Him. But hey! That's just me.

[Goblinmonger]

69. The major symbol is a torture device.

All of lent is about it.

But you digress from the point which is a misunderstanding of what a death cult is. Not believing in an after life neither makes you part of a cult nor a worshiper of death.

[humblebum]

70. Do you believe that death is the end result of all who live? nt

[Goblinmonger]

75. Yes. We all die. There is no afterlife.

That does not make me a member of a cult. Nor someone who worships death. On the contrary, I feel that because I do not believe in an afterlife, I take this life much more seriously. I focus on those around me and making a difference, not on the reward I'm told I will get when I die.

[pokerfan]

147. Hey, how about a spoiler warning!

:rofl: :hi:

[laconicsax]

80. What's your evidence that happened?

You've now stated that your belief is contingent on Jesus rising from the dead, so how do you know that happened?

[humblebum]

84. christianity doesn't claim objective proof, but I base my belief upon

the opinions of thousands of historians, on what I consider to be historical documents, personal experience, and the testimonies of others.

[Goblinmonger]

88. Thousands of historians say Jesus rose from the dead?

Please, just link me to a handful. And not Catholic "historians" but real, actual historians. Hell, link me to one historian that says Jesus actually existed.

[laconicsax]

89. Well, that's a load!

Cite, if you will, a reputable historical journal which discusses Jesus' alleged rise from the dead and concludes that it happened. Surely if there are thousands of historians in your ad populum fallacy, the majority opinion among the historical community should be that Jesus literally rose from the dead (a Biblical literalist view).

You cite your personal experience, which is necessarily false as you didn't witness the supposed event, and as no one you know could have possibly witnessed it and there are no contemporary accounts, all of this "testimony" is hearsay.

You could have tried to use the "it's my faith" cop-out, but you didn't. You've claimed a belief based on evidence, so present the evidence. In modern parlance, link or it didn't happen.

You wouldn't be admitting to a belief in an outright falsehood, would you?

[humblebum]

100. Well, One well known scholar who thinks Jesus existed is Bart Ehrman.

http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2010/11/15/did-jesus-really-exist-bart-ehrman-thinks-so/

There is a huge difference between believing in Jesus and believing in a resurrection. Also, I clearly stated that Christianity is not based on objective evidence, but there is much subjective evidence.

Listen to Ehrman. He's not a believer.

[laconicsax]

108. HAHAHAHAHA!

I ask for something about Jesus rising from the dead and all you can do is name someone who thinks that Jesus probably existed. :rofl: if I wanted that, I could ask a random person in this café.

The subjective evidence you claim is 100% hearsay. Good to know that you have such high standards. :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[humblebum]

111. where did I say there was anyone who could prove that Jesus rose?

The subject is the existence of Jesus. And it would be pretty impossible to objectively prove that any human event happened 2000 rears ago.

[laconicsax]

113. Right here:

Your comment, #68: Who worships death? We worship the one who rose from the dead. Otherwise I wouldn't worship Him. But hey! That's just me.

My reply, #80: What's your evidence that happened? You've now stated that your belief is contingent on Jesus rising from the dead, so how do you know that happened?

Your reply, #84: christianity doesn't claim objective proof, but I base my belief upon the opinions of thousands of historians, on what I consider to be historical documents, personal experience, and the testimonies of others.

I then asked for these sources (reply #89)and you changed the subject to the existence of Jesus.

[humblebum]

114. You're right. There is as much written about his death and resurrection as

there was about the rest of his life. Not much more one can say about that.

[laconicsax]

115. And it's all hearsay.

I guess 2nd and 3rd-hand testimony are one of those 'other ways of knowing' you love so much. It must be right up there with divination and farting.

[humblebum]

118. The bulk of ancient history can be considered hearsay. nt

[darkstar3]

128. Only if you don't know how historians corroborate ancient history.

Hint: Related disciplines include anthropology, archaeology, and more.

[laconicsax]

130. Only if you reject corroborating sources.

The most reliable of which rely on that "narrow" epistemology that limits itself to what's true.

[humblebum]

138. Maybe he just popped into being out of nothingness then out again.

I know how easily you think that can happen.

[laconicsax]

143. Uh huh.

[cleanhippie]

95. Oh. My. God. Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!

And there you have it, folks! Those "other" ways of knowing!

[humblebum]

112. Absolutely. Some people think there is more to enquiry and reasoning than

than simply seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, and touching.

[cleanhippie]

121. Since when did thinking = imagining?

[humblebum]

125. Let's see? Imagining? Is that kinda like thinking outside the box and

exploring new ideas?

[darkstar3]

126. Imagination is not exploration.

[humblebum]

127. Well imagine that! nt

[darkstar3]

129. I can imagine a lot of things.

But just because I can imagine parallel dimensions where I am filthy rich, world famous, and desired by people I would find attractive doesn't mean that I am able to explore them.

[laconicsax]

131. At least we know another one of those 'other ways of knowing.'

He already admitted that hearsay is one, and now we know that imagination is another. I'd hazard a guess that navel-gazing is a subset of that way of knowing if not its own 'useful' epistemology.

[humblebum]

132. When that hearsay is accompanied with a large amount of subjective and supporting

evidence, it greatly increases the validity. Very common method.

[darkstar3]

134. So UFO abductions are valid, now?

[laconicsax]

142. Don't forget about Bigfoot.

These other ways of knowing are fun!

[cleanhippie]

140. Sure, its a common method of getting gullible people to believe, like the vaccine/autism stuff.

Lots of hearsay, anecdotal evidence, subjective and supporting evidence...


It all turned out to be nonsense. 100% bullshit. And yet there are many who still think vaccines cause autism.

Think about that.

[LAGC]

137. You asshole!

LOL, you made me spill pop out my nose!

That was hilarious.

[cleanhippie]

139. And when there is no evidence to support it, it stays imagination.

But you know that.

[cleanhippie]

73. There you go again, with your dishonest postings.

Atheism is nothing more than a LACK OF BELIEF.



Why the fuck is that so hard for you to understand?

[humblebum]

85. When that becomes evident from the statements and actions of

atheists, I'll buy it. Until then, ORGANIZED Atheism is a religion without a god.

[immoderate]

87. No god, no sacred writings, no rituals, no requirements, no prophets...

no worship, no leaders, no magic beings or spirits, no rules, no holy days, no moral code, no ethical code, no special language or tongues.

What would your religion be without those things? They must not be very meaningful if your religion could do without them. :shrug:

Edit to add: No snakes! (Talking or otherwise.)


--imm

[humblebum]

105. Um? leaders, worship, etc., but no god.

http://www.atheist.ie/world-atheist-convention-2011/

Call it what you will, but I'll stick with my opinion.

[immoderate]

107. I see, any hierarchy, any group that has a convention, is a religion.

Comic books, science fiction, Democrats, hockey, Girl Scouts, needle point, musicians... -- all religions in your mind.

Is it that you can find no difference between politics and religion. Is promoting the first amendment a religion?

I understand though, that your opinion cannot be changed.


--imm

[humblebum]

109. If you will notice in the billing off to the right, it also says

"Teaching about Religions and Beliefs."

Conventions of those who congregate as fans of "Comic books, science fiction, Democrats, hockey, Girl Scouts, needle point, musicians" don't as a habit teach about religion.

It's a religion.

[darkstar3]

120. Whatever helps you rationalize your behavior.

But what you think, and what is true, are very different things.

[immoderate]

122. Teaching is a religion? Teaching about religion is a religion?

If you ever would really care to know, and you would have to be a bit more receptive, but if you did care to know, I could tell you that atheist gatherings are generally educational or political. Sometimes both. Religion is rarely mentioned.

The education centers around how to evaluate information based on rational and critical thinking and science, and other methods of analysis. Obviously, that has nothing to do with religion.

The activist stuff is mainly trying to prevent religious symbols, rituals, customs, and expenses, from being forced on the public. When you go to a publicly funded open meeting, why should some priest, minister, rabbi, shaman, medicine man, or witch doctor invoke his spirit to influence the proceedings?

Like most atheists, I don't care what you believe. Everybody believes something and no two people are alike. Even people of the same religion differ in beliefs, because they are a part of personality, which is unique.

You will probably think of atheism as a religion, because that's how you see things.

Proof: If it was a religion, I wouldn't participate. That's what atheist means.

--imm

[cleanhippie]

124. If teaching is a religion, then humblebum is praying at our altar.

Because he is learning right now.

[cleanhippie]

145. Notice how humblebum never resonds to factual rebuttals of his nonsense?

He digs himself into a hole then covers himself up and hides.

[NMMNG]

123. I guess that makes my college a religion

since among other things it taught about religion and beliefs.

[cleanhippie]

93. Yeah, sure it is. You keep believing that, ok?

Do what you have to do in order to rationalize your nonsense.

[Fumesucker]

102. Atheists make Democrats look like army ants by comparison..

I've been an atheist for going on fifty years now and I honestly can't remember meeting another person that identified themselves as an atheist..

No doubt I've met some atheists but it's not like being a Christian where you have little code phrases you exchange.

Seriously, I don't go around saying things like "There is no God." or "Have a Godless day." or "Praise Darwin." to random strangers or chance acquaintances. Let two Christians get together and it only takes a few seconds in a lot of instances before they each know the other is a Christian, praise Jesus.

Keep in mind that the majority of atheists in the USA were raised Christian and atheists also have the greatest knowledge of religion of any group, slightly above Jews who are the most knowledgeable religious sect.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

51. "Christians aren't trying to shove God down your throat..."

Says the evangelical christian who just wasted an entire post witnessing to the soiled masses of unbelievers.

It's people like YOU who give christianity a bad name. If you don't understand how or why your post is a thinly veiled threat, then you probably won't understand how you're giving your religion a bad name.

[laconicsax]

60. "It doesn't take much effort to read or hear about someone who has turned their life around..."

It doesn't take much effort to read or hear about someone who has done despicable things despite having found Jesus. In fact, prisons are full of Christians who have done horrible things.

If you want to shine a light on how Christians behave, you need to take the good with the bad, and doing that kinda undermines your point.

[darkstar3]

65. Let's count the outright falsehoods.

1. "Christians are the largest persecuted group in the world."
No, they are not. They may qualify as the largest persecuted religious group in the world, but that's likely only because they are also the largest religious group overall.

2. "So why do we seldom hear praise for all the lives that have transformed because of Christianity..."
Oh, but we do hear about it. We hear about it in various forms of media, like the myriad of Christian broadcasting networks on television and radio, or the incredible number of Christian publications. Don't sit there and pretend that your voice isn't heard. It is heard so much that it drowns out the voice of those whom Christians treat en masse as less than human, like the members of the LGBTIQAA crowd.

3. "Christians aren't trying to shove God down your throat"
I've lived in this house now for 2 months, and I've had 2 visits already from Christians selling their faith. I've met men on street corners more often than I care to count trying to tell me about their God. There are six Christian radio stations in this area on which, at various times of the day, you'll hear about how hell awaits the sinner and God is an absolute requirement for everyone. Your God is on my money, in my pledge, and invoked in every Presidential speech I've ever seen televised. It is ridiculous to a fault to state so baldly that Christians aren't trying to shove God down anyone's throat.

4. "I'm aware that there are many Christians that give Christianity a bad name, but there are those who are sincere and making the world a better place."
And those Christians you disagree with will say exactly the same about you. Who is right? Which of you is perverting the name of Christian? With no objective definition for the word, you can't claim that people you disagree with are perverting the term.

[NMMNG]

82. Right

Christians aren't trying to shove God down your throat, they are excited about what has happened to them and want you to find it as well.

Like telemarketers and door-to-door salesmen?


BTW, don't tell me Christians aren't trying to shove god down my throat. I'm a victim of Proposition 8.

[Iggo]

90. That'd be the backside view of them leaving my property. (n/t)

[deacon_sephiroth]

104. persecuted group?

really?

You mean that when Christians try to go to church, someone stands outside and yells at them with picket signs and shoves pamphlets into their hands? Or creates laws that REQUIRE the people going into the church to have counter-arguments lectured at them BEFORE they can go in. (Abortion clinics)

You mean gay soldiers go to CHRISTIAN funerals and wave hateful signs and chant derogatory terms at their grieving loved ones?

So it's CHRISTIANS that are being profiled by police for their traditional garb, being made synonymous with terrorism by the media, and who have no representation on capitol hill....

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh, wow I had no idea, you poor poor babies.

[trotsky]

106. There is definitely a positive side of Christianity.

The side that's out there helping people instead of attacking them on an Internet message board and making ridiculously false claims of persecution.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

110. There are a lot of Unitarian-universalist Atheists.

The joke is that they worship the Giver of Life -- The Coffeepot.

:rofl:

They draw from many different religious and humanist traditions:

www.uua.org

[Deep13]

119. I have no faith in Unitarian Atheists.

Because I'm an atheist. :evilgrin:

[Manifestor_of_Light]

133. It's a good place to make atheist friends.

And other godless secular humanists.

[Deep13]

141. Good thing to keep in mind. nt

[Deep13]

116. SOME Christians are trying to shove god down our throats as you put it.

Some are trying to make this country a fundamentalist theocracy. Some have succeeded elsewhere in the world and Christians historically have ruled as theocrats.

I dispute your claim that faith in god/Jesus has done anything. What is the factual basis for your claim. Just because two things happen at once--faith, quitting drugs--does not mean one thing caused the other. It may be the person attributes the improvement to faith when he reality that person did it on his or her own. Indeed, relying on divine interventions necessarily means being one ones own because said intervention never happens. And what about the vast numbers of people who turned their lives over to god and were screwed anyway. We KNOW those people exist. You really can't give credit to faith for the successes without taking blame for the failures. And there are a lot of failures. Consider A.A. whose whole program is based on turning ones life over to god. They have a minuscule success rate and a failure rate of over 90%. It doesn't work.

[Marrah_G]

135. As a Wiccan I find it hard to see Christians as persecuted

Also, I'm happy for anyone who finds peace for themselves. All I ask is that you not feel compelled to "witness" or "preach" to myself or my family.

"Christians aren't trying to shove God down your throat, they are excited about what has happened to them and want you to find it as well. "

I don't want to hear about your god, I don't want to hear about how awesome you think he is, I have zero interest in finding "it" as well. I have my own faith you see. I have my own Gods and Goddesses.

Frankly, as a pagan I prefer you all keep your religious views to yourself, because when you don't it rarely ends up as a positive conversation from my point of view.

And lastly, I will try to put this nicely: You need to take a long hard look at the true meaning of oppression. I don't think it means what you believe it to mean.

[LeftishBrit]

146. I would disagree with your first sentence

I would say that the largest persecuted groups in the world are (1) poor people; (2) people of colour; and (3) in many nations, women. Racial and religious minorities of all sorts are, however, persecuted on a regular basis. And certainly this includes Christians.

I agree that there are many Christians who are sincere and making the world a better place.

I don't even mind too much if someone 'tries to shove God down my throat'. What I do mind is if people try to shove right-wing politics down my throat in the name of God. Or in the name of anything - but religion is too often used for the purpose.

[Name removed]

148. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftyMom]

152. I'm going to let you in on a secret: We already know and we're not interested.

There's a church on every freakin' corner, and free bibles are not exactly hard to come by. How about if somebody's interested in your favorite undead Palestinian handyman they just let you know?

[cleanhippie]

154. Wait, what? You don't want to be constantly accosted by god-botherers? Thats persecution, you know.

Why do you want to infringe on someones right to tell you you are a bad person who will burn in hell for eternity?

[LeftyMom]

155. I do love the Biblical mandate to bang on my door at 8 am on Saturdays,

That always gets me talking to Jesus, especially if I worked late the night before.

[Taverner]

156. Wait - what? "Most persecuted group in the world???"

Pardon me, I gotta laugh....