Cedar Fall preschool plan draws fire from Atheist group

[rug]

CEDAR FALLS --- The Board of Education's recent decision to invest more than $60,000 into a Cedar Falls church which will house part of the district's preschool program has caught the attention of the Freedom from Religion Foundation.

The Wisconsin-based nonprofit Friday sent a letter and email to Deon Senchina, the board president, detailing their concern with the decision. Senchina was not at the meeting when the decision was made.

"This is exactly the kind of entanglement that the founders of our country did not want to have," said Annie Laurie Gaylor, the foundation's co-president. "... This deal is at taxpayers' expense and it is unacceptable in our opinion."

Last week the board approved a $61,940 construction contract with Kidder Construction of Waterloo to remodel space inside Kaio Church, 815 Orchard Drive, which is located next door to Southdale Elementary. The project includes converting a janitor's closet into a handicap-accessible restroom, adding two preschool-age handicap accessible restrooms, installing emergency exits in the classroom spaces and other improvements that would bring the space up to code. Some asbestos removal work already has been completed at the district's expense.

http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/cedar-falls-preschool-plan-draws-fire-from-atheist-group/article_b766699a-2752-5019-8fbb-cd01e45465b8.html

[laconicsax]

1. Not only are they having the preschool in a church, but they're paying to remodel a church?

That has to be one of the most egregious violations of the 1st Amendmen I've seen.

[rug]

3. Did you read this part?

"To my knowledge there is no basis in fact for what the letter is alleging. Separation has to do with programming, not the facility. We are not going to be propagating any religion in our preschool program," he said.

He added that it is relatively common practice for districts to enter into property agreements with churches --- it happened in both Algona and Grinnell during his time in those districts --- and to make improvements to any properties that they do use, like the city building that housed the district's alternative school for several years.

[laconicsax]

4. Yes, and it has no bearing on what I said.

Taxpayer monies should not be going to remodel a church.

[rug]

5. Do you consider installing a handicap accessible toilet in a preschool classroom to be

remodeling a church?

[laconicsax]

7. It depends on where the classroom is.

If it's in a church, then yes, it's remodeling a church.

[rug]

8. That's not the state of caselaw.

[laconicsax]

9. Cite the relevant decision please.

[rug]

14. For starters.

Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602, 612-13 (1971).
Porta v. Klagholz, 19 F.Supp.2d 290, 298 (D.N.J. 1998).
Skoros v. City of New York, 437 F.3d 1, 29-30 (2d Cir. 2006).

[laconicsax]

19. BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

Lemon suggests that using taxpayer money to remodel a church is unconstitutional, Porta only says that church property can be used and has no relevance on the constitutionality of using taxpayer money to remodel a church, and Skoros is about a nativity scene.

While all three support the idea that a church can be used, none of those three decisions address the issue of taxpayer money being used to remodel a church. It's almost as if you just copied and pasted a list of decisions pertaining to church-state separation without reading what they actually say.

[rug]

21. Yes, all three support the principle that a public entity can use a church and

no, this case is not about using axpayer money "to remodel a church".

Got any case showing they can't in this instant?

[laconicsax]

22. Shifiting the goalposts so soon? n/t

[rug]

23. A cliche is not a case.

So I'll assume you have none.

[laconicsax]

25. I claimed that public money shouldn't be used to remodel a church.

You said that caselaw disagrees, and cited two cases which ruled that it's fine for a public school to hold events at a church and a case where the court ruled that it was unconstitutional to use public money to pay church employees.

So not only did your citations not counter my original assertion, one of them supports it. Rather admit that you were wrong, you tried to move the goalposts.

I guess I should have expected as much.

[cleanhippie]

2. Too bad its not drawing fire from MODERATE RELIGIOUS groups...

It will ALWAYS be the non-believers making sure EVERYONE gets treated equally.


I wonder why that is.

[struggle4progress]

6. Cedar Falls Board of Education picks preschool site

By EMILY CHRISTENSEN
Tuesday, August 9, 2011 6:00 pm

CEDAR FALLS, Iowa --- A growing elementary school population has forced the Cedar Falls School District to look outside its own buildings to find space for two preschool classrooms ...

The project includes converting a janitor's closet into a handicap-accessible restroom, adding two preschool-age handicap accessible restrooms, installing emergency exits in the classroom spaces as well as other improvements that will bring the space up to city codes.

About $5,000 of asbestos abatement work is also required and is not included in the bidded project. The board has yet to approve a lease agreement with the church ...

The church is next door to Southdale Elementary so there will be easy access to food service, transportation and playground equipment ...

http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/cedar-falls-board-of-education-picks-preschool-site/article_131b8636-e65a-5698-a6c7-161158a9caf8.html

It really wouldn't be my preference about how to proceed, but I don't know how strapped for cash the school district is and what their other alternatives for under $70K are. Church space is frequently unused during the week, and churches often consider some service to the surrounding community as part of their mission. Every year, I go to vote in church space which the church lets the board of elections commandeer; I used to hold my precinct meetings at the same church, despite the fact that I wasn't a member there: they were very nice about letting me use their space for such a quasi-public meeting, because they figured offering such space was part of their mission

[jwirr]

10. Here's where I disagree with a lot of you. This is not a church program.

The school district is running the program and needs space. This plan beats the hell out of what it would cost to add a whole new addition on a school building. Many programs both secular and government rent space in churches because they are spacious and often contain rooms outfitted like school room already. Churches only use them on Sundays.

[darkstar3]

11. And the money that goes from the taxpayer to the church?

Can you explain how that doesn't violate the First Amendment?

[jwirr]

12. No I am not a lawyer but this has been going on all across the

country for years. Our first special ed classes were held in a rented church room. I don't think anyone has ever challenged it. My guess is that the ruling would say that the money is rental and not support for the religion. I guess someone is going to have to take it to court. My only reason for supporting this as I said is what it would cost a small community to build instead of rent. There are few other types of buildings that are actual school rooms already. In the town where I live I cannot think of a single building that has class rooms other than churches and schools that could be rented.

[darkstar3]

13. The problem is "rental and not support" doesn't hold.

Why?

Because what does the landlord do with the rent? He turns a profit and uses it for his own purposes. Having seen many an instance of this myself in rural America, I can tell you that's exactly what the church as landlord does in this case.

This one doesn't pass the smell test.

[exboyfil]

15. This so happens to be in my neighborhood

My daughters attended Southdale for elementary school. This particular school has been growing like an octopus since my daughters started attending 11 years ago. The same can be said for the Junior High. Virtually no major building occurred at either school from the time my wife attended them until 30-40 years ago and the time my daughters started attending. In the last 11 years it has probably doubled in classroom space.

I think we are overbuilding for an immediate need to offer K-12 education because of the expansion in professional positions by our largest local employer. I can tell you, once certain enviromental requirements are satisfied in our products, that there is a good chance that many of those professional positions will go away. We may be left with excess classroom capacity in just a few years.


I frankly question the need/desirability for state supported preschool or at least state supported preschool for middle class families. The desire to chase the dollars available for offering state preschool is the reason for the space issues leading to upgrading this church.

I would prefer to not offer the programs and not get involved in a church/state entanglement. We have no state constitutional or legal requirement to offer preschool so the simple answer is to not offer it.

The other alternative, building additional classroom space, will lead to school closures and wasted resources in the future. In just the past 11 years or so our community has rebuilt two elementary schools, doubled the size of another, and has added or will add 25-50% more classroom space to two others. We have also undergone massive building projects in our two Junior High Schools. It is also my view that the High School is also in need of a serious upgrade, and I expect my youngest will be walking around construction her entire time in K-12.

[jwirr]

18. Thank you for the imformation.

[cleanhippie]

20. The problem I see is that the church will charge market rental rates to the city

and will not pay a DIME in revenue or property taxes. The city will pay for the remodel, and when the rental agreement expires, the church has a brand new remodeled space that they didn't pay and didn't pay any taxes on.

If the city needs space and wants to rent, at market value, space from a church, then the church has just become a business and needs to pay taxes.

[dmallind]

16. not too worried about this AS LONG AS

Both the rooms and any and all access points to them are free of religious symbols or slogans, and that any activity rhe church uses these classrooms for does not include these same kids (for example if they held catechism classes or Sunday school there for the same children, it would inevitably link the site to religious purposes in their minds). I'm not worried about catching church-cooties from the building itself, and in fact I wish more churches were converted to useful purposes like this.

[edhopper]

24. I agree

but somehow think this is never the case. Many of the children probably attend that church. It tells them their school endorses their church. It connects the two in their minds.

[rrneck]

17. Moving the gluttons to front teat. nt