Frank urges support for Israel in quest for peace

[King_David]

Shefali Luthra

Published: Tuesday, October 18, 2011

The United States must support Israel's right to exist in order to establish peace in the Middle East, Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass. told a crowded Salomon 101 last night.

Frank, who spoke at the "Middle East Talks" event co-sponsored by the Brown Democrats and Brown Students for Israel, said support for Israel is crucial in creating a two-state peace between Israel and Palestine. But that support should not be unconditional, he said. It comes with the "right to critique policy" — something he said should be in place between all allied nations.

Israel is a country the United States should align itself with, Frank said, referring to its record on human rights. When Frank argued in Congress for the repeal of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," he cited Israel's policy of allowing gays and lesbians to serve in the military as an example.

Despite being "always under attack," he added, Israel is "one of the most democratic centers in the world."

"Six months ago, if you were an Arab in the Middle East and you were critical of the government, you were safest doing that in Israel," he said, acknowledging that the situation may have changed in wake of the so-called "Arab Spring."


http://www.browndailyherald.com/frank-urges-support-for-israel-in-quest-for-peace-1.2654897

[King_David]

1. "Three government leaders in my lifetime have spoken positively about gay rights in the House of Rep

"Three government leaders in my lifetime have spoken positively about gay rights in the House of Representatives," he said. "Barack Obama, Bill Clinton and Benjamin Netanyahu."


Israel is a country the United States should align itself with, Frank said, referring to its record on human rights. When Frank argued in Congress for the repeal of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," he cited Israel's policy of allowing gays and lesbians to serve in the military as an example.

[King_David]

2. , Israel is "one of the most democratic centers in the in the world."

Despite being "always under attack," he added, Israel is "one of the most democratic centers in the world."

[King_David]

3. 'Hamas must recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state '

[Rageneau]

4. Tell THEM that.

Everyone except some intransigent groups like Hamas and its sympathizers realizes that the only road to peace means the recognition of Israel's right to exist.

Problem with intransigent groups like Hamas is that they don't care as much about peace as they do about getting their hard-headed way.

They're, like, the tea party of the Middle East.

[King_David]

5. Barney Frank said :

They "must recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state '

Nor Fatah nor the PLO or any other group has done this.

[Ken Burch]

16. Bullshit. The PLO recognized Israel in 1994. That put THAT part of it to rest.

It's just Hamas that hasn't recognized them, among the factions involved in the I/P dispute.

It's simply not legitimate for the Israelis to act like what happened in '94 doesn't count.

[shira]

18. That doesn't count when the PA demands & insists on full RoR. Palestinians cannot have both.....

...their own state AND reserve the right to make Israel into another Arab majority state.

Google for yourself Abbas pictured with maps of Palestine replacing Israel and calling for the rights of all individual refugees.

[King_David]

19. Barney Frank said :

They "must recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state '

[Ken Burch]

24. Recognizing Israel is the same thing.

And why do Palestinians have to recognize Israel "as a Jewish state", when that demand was never made of Anwar Sadat OR King Hussein?

[King_David]

25. Those are the terms nt

[azurnoir]

26. why are those the terms? n/t

[Ken Burch]

35. It isn't as simple as saying "those are the terms"

It's pointless to insist on terms that you KNOW the other side can never possibly accept.

Getting them to recognize Israel and cease hostilities against it would be enough. It's not worth keeping the war going just to try to get them to "say it the way I want them to say it". Netanyahu sounds like an oversized three-year-old when he insists on that language. He's not respecting the dignity the other side.

What matters is peace...not getting a particular phrase said. Peace is always more important than anything else. There's hope in peace...there can't be hope in perpetual war.

And I'll ask AGAIN...why do the Palestinians have to use the special magic phrase when Egypt and Jordan DIDN'T have to. If it was enough for those two states simply to recognize Israel, why ISN'T that enough when it comes to the people who's cooperation is actually needed to end all this? Why should more be asked of the Palestinians than of the states that actually led the Arab forces in the Six Day War?

[King_David]

36. Just like Jerusalem being indivisible

And Ramallah being the 'New' capital of Palistine. When negotiating from a point of wekness,you gotta accept and take what you get.

Just like the Jews (and my Zaidah) did in 1948

[Ken Burch]

38. In other words...you have no interest in peace at all

You just want to be able to tell yourself "we're winning", even if that means the war NEVER ends.

You must really hate the next generation of Israeli children if you're this in love with victory and payback.

[King_David]

40. Actually have no idea what your going on about

And as usual it bears no semblance to anything I wrote.



(Most posters you reply to here complain about the same thing)

[Ken Burch]

42. I know exactly what I'm talking about

It's simple: It is COMPLETELY inconsistent to say you want peace and at the same time insist that the OTHER side in the conflict should make all the concessions.

This is because peace-through-"victory" isn't possible, in this conflict or anywhere else. The only way to make peace is compromise between both sides. The days of World War II endings are over.

[shira]

46. Ken, you're insisting Israel make all the concessions and that the PA/Hamas enjoy 'victory'.

Neither the PA or Hamas will recognize Israel without reserving their right to change Israel into yet another majority Arab nation.

That's the least they can do.

When you say you recognize Israel within its 1949 borders, that's not enough either. You need to also realize it's the Jews' permanent homeland and you need to be against making it into another Arab majority state.

[Ken Burch]

49. NO, I'm not

It's a massive concession for Palestinians to recognize Israel at all...Even recognizing it in the 1967 boundaries means accepting the permanence of the unjust destruction of those hundreds of Arab villages, for example.

And if they recognize Israel, simply recognize the state, that would also prevent them from trying to make it an Arab majority nation(although, again, the Arab Spring proves that Arab states don't HAVE to be dictatorships, so it's time for you to stop acting as if "Arab state" equals "Hell on Earth".)

The compromise is this:

1)Israel's existence goes on (btw, a larger and larger number of Jewish people all over the planet reject the idea of Israel as their "homeland", so it's time to stop acting as if Israel represents the entire Jewish population on the planet or that that entire population stands behind Bibi and his arrogance)in peace.

2)The Palestinians get a state that is actually SUSTAINABLE, that can't be taken away from them anytime the Israeli government decides it should be, that is not having to live at the mercy of the IDF(which, I think you'd have to agree, is just as fair as insisting that Israel not have to live at the mercy of the Arabs).

[shira]

54. Then you're for endless conflict and enmity if you leave the door open for an Arab majority Israel..

...and insist that the very existence of Israel is unjust to Palestinians.

And sorry - but you're wrong about PA simple recognition of Israel proving they don't wish to make the state majority Arab. Abbas has repeatedly promised full RoR to Palestinians over and over again. Recognition means nothing if it's only temporary or until RoR makes Israel into yet another Arab state.

[shira]

29. They need to recognize Israel as a Jewish State to prove their goal is not 3 Palestinian states...

They don't get Gaza and the West Bank while also reserving the right to flood Israel with enough Palestinians to turn the Jewish state into another Arab majority nation.

Abbas proudly holding up a carving of the future Palestine that erases Israel, and more....
http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=413&fld_id=556&doc_id=4275

[Ken Burch]

34. Again, why do THEY have to recognize it as "a Jewish state"

When Egypt and Jordan DIDN'T have to?

It's enough that they recognize "The State of Israel". That, by itself, proves their good intentions. It's simply childish and petulant to make them "say it the way WE want them to say it".

[shira]

45. Answered in #29. n/t

[Ken Burch]

50. Not answered.

Why do Palestinians have to use those particular words if Sadat and King Hussein DIDN'T have to?

[shira]

55. Because Sadat and Hussein didn't insist on full RoR like the PLO and Hamas. Besides....

...we all know the Arab/Israel conflict is primarily about Israel's mere existence.

Arab nations weren't for 2 states back in 1948. They weren't for a separate Palestine back then alongside Israel. They were against Israel's existence.

They still are and that's why refugees are still in camps 63 years later.

The refugees are still in camps today for the very same reason they were there 53 years ago. To be used as weapons ensuring Israel's destruction.

If you're for peace, you have to be against that.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

6. Supporting Israel and supporting Israel's right to exist are far from the same thing.

And to call Israel "one of the most democratic centres in the world" when it only one of the two peoples its government rules over is allowed to vote is just laughable.

[BeenThereDoneThat]

7. WOW

Are you seriously stating that Israeli Arabs do not vote in Israel?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

8. Yes.

I'm "suggesting" that a very large number of Arabs native to Israel were expelled in the Nakba and are still refused the right to live in their own homes, never mind the right to vote. I freely acknowledge that Israel is never going to let the Arabs it ethnically cleansed return, but unless it does it will continue to deserve the tag of "apartheid state". Arguably, in fact, that comparison is unjust to South Africa - at least the black population was still allowed to live there.

We must never allow "delegitimisation" to become a dirty word. The Nakba *was* a crime against humanity, and Israel must not be allowed to forget it.

[shira]

9. Comical. Unless Israel allows full RoR, Israel will deserve the tag of 'apartheid state'.

I freely acknowledge that Israel is never going to let the Arabs it ethnically cleansed return, but unless it does it will continue to deserve the tag of "apartheid state".

Fact:

Tens of millions were ethnically cleansed from their homelands during the WWII era. Including Arab lands which expelled Jews.

But only Israel deserves the tag of 'apartheid state'.

:shrug:

In the West Bank and Gaza, there are Palestinian refugees in camps who are still denied basic rights under Hamas/PA control. THAT's apartheid. As is the situation for Palestinian refugees born in Lebanon, who cannot work in many professional fields, own land, or vote. THAT's also apartheid.

But only Israel deserves the tag of 'apartheid state'.

And delegitimization will thankfully stop once Israel agrees to self-implode...

:eyes:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

10. Who said anything about "only"?

I'm talking about whether Israel is practicing apartheid; whether or not other countries are is not relevant to that.

[BeenThereDoneThat]

11. You did

16th word in the body of your text which earned my "WOW"

[Donald Ian Rankin]

13. I think you may be confused.

I said that the Israeli government is voted for by only one of the two peoples it rules over.

I did not say that Israel is the only state practising something analogous to apartheid.

The two are nothing whatsoever to do with one another.

Was this honest confusion on your part, or a silly attempt at a "gotcha"?

[BeenThereDoneThat]

21. Confucius say

Wise man in hole stops digging

[azurnoir]

28. Let's try this on Israel insists on the Palestinians defining it

because in doing so the Palestinians give up all RoR there helping Israel to maintain the artificial Jewish majority it created during and after the Nakba by which albeit there are Arab political parties and Israeli Arabs are allowed to vote they are always in the minority and never really are able to affect policy in Israel

[shira]

31. Israel should remain super majority Jewish. Once that stops, the law of return will be repealed...

...and Jews will have no place on earth where they can be safe controlling their own destiny.

Jews aren't willfully going to return to the situation for Jews worldwide prior to 1948. The world's hatred made the establishment of Israel a moral imperative. When the rest of the world grows up and demonstrates there is no need for a Jewish state, the debates can begin.

Until then, no thanks.

Jews aren't doing the Helen Thomas, going back to Poland and Germany....

======

ETA
Your remark about Israel's artificial majority via the Nakba shouldn't go unanswered. You realize half of Israel's Jewish population is the result of Arab ethnic cleansing after 1948?

[azurnoir]

33. yes I do and it is yet another case of 'serendipity' that enough Arabs had 'left;' Israel for there

to be enough room for them eh?

[shira]

37. You've made yourself clear in the past. If the refugees you purport to care for need to stay...

...in refugee camps another 60 years, so be it.

You're fine with them being used as weapons against Israel for as long as it takes.

[azurnoir]

47. it seems you've become comfortable with your own rhetoric

weapons against Israel I see or perhaps a way of preventing Israel from simply 'transferring' the Arab population of it and it's conquered territories to existing Arab countries, is that why the attempt to constanting accuse or keep others on the defensive, its become pretty transparent as such

[shira]

48. There's no other way of seeing things when you insist on a mythical RoR...

...in the hopes of reversing the 1948 outcome.

[Ken Burch]

44. The world is nothing at all like it was in 1948

There aren't any Hitlers, now. There aren't any death camps. We've learned, for God's sake. And people all over the world are on the watch for any signs of any recurrence of that madness. The world's Jewish communities are no longer alone and are not in danger of extinction-and certainly not at the hands of those who support self-determination for Palestine.

And the only Hitler there was was in EUROPE, not in the Middle East.

Please stop acting as if nothing has changed since that horrible era.

That is one of the main injustices in all of this:

Yes, European Christians were horrific to Jews...and that must still be addressed(including the question of Anglo-American corporate support for the Third Reich).

But it was never fair for Palestinians to have to suffer in the name of redressing an injustice they played no role in. The Holocaust was solely the work of Europeans-Arabs weren't responsible for it.

Besides which, Israel's survival will never seriously be in question. It has the fourth-largest war machine in the world. You can't have that big of a military force and STILL be in an "existential crisis".

And even if it were in an "existential crisis"(which makes it sound like this is all something out of Sartre or Camus, btw)continuing the Occupation and insisting on preserving the settlements are the worst possible ways to address that. The way to address it seriously would be to stop doing the things that are the most provocative and inflammatory in Palestinian eyes...not to insist on continuing to do those things and to do even more of them.

The settlements really are a major part of the problem...and Palestinians having to live surrounded by armed troops from another country really is another. It's absurd that you keep pretending that neither of those things have any real role in the perpetuation of this conflict.

The way to protect Jews from danger is the same way to protect everyone else: the creation of a world without injustice, and the struggle to make that world come into being. Telling everyone that they have no right to criticize the Israeli government(or that criticism must be limited and restricted in ways that criticism of no other country on the planet must be) does nothing at all to protect the population of Israel, or those outside of it that Israel purports to defend and speak in the name of. It simply encourages the most arrogant and intransigent forces in Israeli politics -Beitenyu, Likud, and Kadima- in their refusal to ever change anything. Bibi and Tzipi and Lieberman are arrogant enough and blind to reality enough without being given a blank check from anybody.

[pelsar]

53. this is rich...coming from you...

.... the same way to protect everyone else: the creation of a world without injustice

and this is from someone who promotes the establishment of a new state that "SHOULD" have minority rights, but does not really have to (nor do they plan to)......your far more interested in nationalism than individual civil rights and justice.

[King_David]

41. Kind of like Jews in every country of the world

Minority Group.

Except in Israel that is.

Arabs and Muslims are Majority in many many many countries.

That is the essence of this. A whole lot of people do not think Jews should be the majority in ANY country.

[Ken Burch]

51. That's not what people in this forum are saying.

The issue is that Palestinians shouldn't have to suffer because of what European Christians did.

That European Christians did to Jews in the past does not justify a state claiming to acting in the name of those people inflicting oppression on someone else and being able to demand that no one in the world call that state on it.

If the lands of the Mandate had been empty in 1948, it would have been different.

[King_David]

52. Again your reply bears no semblance

To what I wrote.

My reply to you : I eat corn flakes before work every day.

[shira]

14. So is the Palestinian and Lebanese leadership also practicing apartheid in your view?

It's still comical you believe that unless Israel allows full RoR in order to end itself will the demonization end.

You wish to see a liberal democracy replaced by Hamas/PLO rule similar to the Egyptian/Syrian/Jordanian model when you say you're for another Arab majority state within the 1949 borders.

That's quite the indefensible position you have.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

22. Please stop telling me what I wish - you don't have ESP, and always get it wrong.

I emphatically do not want to see Hamas ruling anywhere; I don't want to see rule along the Syrian or Jordanian lines anywhere; currently there is no Egyptian model of government so I'll reserve judgement on whether I want to see Palestine go the same was as Egypt until I see which way it goes.

"Demonisation" is one of the wonderful words that lets you dismiss criticism without having to respond to it.

[shira]

23. PA rule would be no better than the Jordanian/Syrian/Egyptian model.

Once again, since you brought it up, does the PA or Lebanon practice apartheid? Or is it only Israel doing so?

[azurnoir]

27. so the PA won't meet your standards so let the occupation continue is that it?

almost as rich as promoting the idea of a "League of Democracies" type of organization to replace the UN

[shira]

30. Donald is arguing that refugees have the right to flood Israel, making it into a majority Arab state

THAT nation would be ruled by Arab dictators no better than the rogue, totalitarian regimes surrounding Israel.

Read more carefully.

[azurnoir]

32. I did read quite carefully and I am also quite familiar with the opinion that Palestinians that

'left' or were expelled from Israel have no right to return but I do find it interesting that you feel Jordan and Egypt are rogue, totalitarian regimes at this point in time IMO the only country 'surrounding' Israel that anywhere near fits that description is Syria

[Ken Burch]

39. It's racist to insist that Arab countries MUST be dictatorships.

You do realize that the Arab Spring is proving you wrong about that, don't you?

This is what happens when you tie your cause to relentlessly demonizing another people. The cause YOU fight for is made to look foolish and delusional(which is unfair TO that cause)and you end up looking like a petulant child.

[shira]

56. What are you talking about? How has the Arab spring brought about genuine democracy?

The rise of the MB and groups more sympathetic to al-Qaeda is not proof of genuine liberal democracies with the full human/civil rights package.

That's a step backwards.

Name an Arab nation going forward liberally or progressively and back it up with some tangible evidence.

[Shaktimaan]

12. of course

so you don't mean Israeli Arabs... you mean Arab Palestinians, who never had the right to vote. That's quite a bit different.

Look, the people you're talking about never lived in Israel. They lived in the land that existed prior to Israel's formation... Palestine. So they weren't thrown out of their country or anything. The majority were internally displaced. Correct, they can not vote in Israeli elections. But WHY do they want to? Since when do they want to be Israelis so badly? I thought this whole thing was about securing a state for the Palestinians. When the Jews got their state they didn't complain about how it's OK and all but they also want the ability to go back to Iraq and Morocco and France, etc. It defeats the whole point of having a state for youselves.

Beyond that, I am really perplexed as to why it is considered so monsterous that a Palestinian Husband and his Wife should have to live the rest of their days 25 whole miles from the land that they grew up on and considered their own... never getting to see it again. It's not like they were moved off to Bolivia. They are still in the exact same country, just one town over.

And this happened post WWII!!!! Do you know what the rest of the world was dealing with then? Huge scale forced transfers. Communist takeovers. Widespread pogroms. Retribution killings. Genocide. Ethnic cleansing. But here we are 65 years later, everyone else has their shit together except for the Palestinians, who still can't get over the fact that they had to move down the street, to a new place, in the same country. OK, maybe they lost their house and got a tent instead. But it's been 65 years now and I'm getting a little suspicous of the whole tent thing. Not to be rude, but if this is the best they can do after 65 years and they haven't made it out of the tent yet I have somewhat less than stellar hopes for the success of their fledgeling nation.

I freely acknowledge that Israel is never going to let the Arabs it ethnically cleansed return, but unless it does it will continue to deserve the tag of "apartheid state". Arguably, in fact, that comparison is unjust to South Africa - at least the black population was still allowed to live there.

This is getting so weird. At this point it is OK to just use the word "apartheid" while attaching any meaning to it at all? It's like a Twilight Zone episode. The Palestinians don't WANT ROR, they want their own state. They don't get to ask for both. Doesn't matter anyway, because they were never Israeli in the first place. Not to mention that population transfers of this sort were considered normal, or even preferable when de-colonizing new states during this time period. Israel did not steal that land from you. You had plenty of room to make a state in Gaza and Jordan. What happened? You meekly allowed yourself to become subjugated by your Arab "friends."

Feel free to complain about the Nakba and ROR but bear in mind that you then lose the right to complain about settlements. After all settlements are just ROR for Israelis to Palestine. In that case your only logical argument can be "No settlements on Palestine land, unless we also get to do the same thing aka: ROR."

[Ken Burch]

17. Here's what I would propose

1)Israel would formally recognize the RIGHT of Return for the Palestinian refugees.

2)The actual physical return of the refugees would be replaced by packages of compensation, apologies, and AN ADMISSION that the Palestinians of 1948 did not deserve to be driven away from their homes.

Actually having everyone who claims descent from the 1948(and 1967)refugees would be problematic...but the admission of the Right and an acknowledgment of the historic injustice would do a lot to change Palestinian attitudes and begin the process of reconciliation that will have to occur at some point.

It's simply not workable for the Israelis to keep saying, in effect "finders keepers, losers weepers".

[shira]

57. What makes you think your terms wrt RoR would be acceptable to the PLO or Hamas? n/t

[Ken Burch]

15. Israel's survival is NOT in question-it can't be when that country has

the fourth-largest war machine on the planet.

Israel, as a nation, is NOT the victim in the conflict with the Palestinians. And it is not entitled to special consideration.

It's enough for the U.S. to support Israel's existence within the pre-1967 lines.

[King_David]

20. Israel is the stronger party here

Fact of life is they get to dictate most of the terms.

[azurnoir]

43. ooh "might makes right" always a winner I guess? n/t