Kitsap (WA) Rifle and Revolver Club

[mikeb302000]

http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2011/oct/12/residents-describe-problems-with-gun-noise-and/">The Kitsap Sun reports

Central Kitsap residents disturbed by flying bullets and noisy gunfire appeared Wednesday in a Tacoma courtroom, as Kitsap County lawyers continued to argue their case against the Kitsap Rifle and Revolver Club. The county's lawsuit against the gun club, filed a year ago, contends that the club violated land-use regulations and created a public nuisance through noise and bullets leaving the gun range on Seabeck Highway.

The gun club, which denies the claims, is expected to begin putting on its evidence next week in Pierce County Superior Court, where Judge Susan Serko is presiding. Deborah Slaton, a resident of Eldorado Hills north of the gun range, told the court Wednesday that Kitsap Rifle and Revolver Club entered her consciousness with a bang in 2007, when a bullet came through a back wall in her house and came to rest on the floor.

This is absolutely disgraceful. That place should have been shut down long ago. Don't these gun-rights people have any integrity at all?

A bullet went through the lady's wall and into her home and all these guys can do is hire lawyers to argue whether it came from the gun club or not?

We obvioulsy need a one-strike-you're-our rule for shooting ranges too.

What's your opinion? Please leave a comment.
http://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/">(cross posted at Mikeb302000)

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kennah]

2. County witnesses don't sound all that compelling

http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2011/oct/13/distance-bullets-can-travel-is-disputed-in-court/

Another witness for the county, James Reynolds of the Poulsbo Sportsman Club, described how his club had installed baffles on its rifle lines to prevent bullets from overshooting the backstops. Baffles at the Poulsbo club are a series of wooden structures lined up in front of the shooting position. If a shooter discharges his weapon steeply upward, the bullet would strike the nearest baffle. A slightly upward trajectory would strike a baffle farther down the line.
...
Some of the berms were installed just a few years ago to improve safety at the range, he acknowledged.

Chenoweth asked whether the range was unsafe without the baffles.

"We didn't think so," Reynolds said.

So a witness for the county acknowledges the baffles are effectively to placate the county.

[petronius]

11. I think that witness was talking about a different range, although it's kind of

unclear in the switch to "berms" from "baffles." Giving an example of something Kitsap has declined to do? Certainly if bullets are leaving the range it's a big problem, but nothing in the article suggests that that has been established.

It sounds like there's a lot going on here, and very little of it is a gun rights or firearms policy issue (it's more of a zoning/land use/permits dispute). Many of the neighbors sound like late-arriving NIMBYs to me, although I'd agree that if the club has made recent changes (louder weapons, extended hours, explosions) then those specifics would be reasonable to complain about. But absent more details, those complaints look like things to be dealt with through neighborly cooperation and communication, rather than the courts...

[DonP]

13. We had a similar situation a few years back

The range was in place for over 70 years, new home development full of McMansions complaining about the noise and "danger" to the children.

The news crews showed up and one of the homeowners, to prove his point, showed the camera crew a cartridge that he "found on his driveway" that very morning.

Not the bullet, the idiot had a complete 30.06 cartridge that he claimed came from the shooting range. The dumb ass news crew ran with it, not knowing any better. They both looked stupid when somebody asked how an unfired round wound up on his driveway and had he dropped it there on purpose?

Range won, homeowners shut up and learned to live with it.

In fact I'm hard pressed to come up with a single example of a shooting range causing a death or injury from an overshot. Maybe I just missed it? But with a millions of rounds fired each year I'm sure there must be hundreds of accidental injuries and deaths from shooting ranges?

[russ1943]

25. Just yesterday a decision by a local prosecutor on that subject.

Grand Haven Township
A Grand Haven man was hit in the arm, possibly by an errant bullet fired Thursday morning from a gun range a half-mile away, according to Lt. Mark Bennett of the Ottawa County Sheriff’s Department. North Ottawa Rod & Gun Club, 13084 160th Ave., just south of Ferris Street.
A house in the same Grand Haven Township subdivision was also struck by a bullet.
http://www.grandhaventribune.com/content/gh-man-injured-house-hit-possible-accidental-shooting


Prosecutor: No charges against gun club
Said cops whose bullets hit man weren't reckless
Updated: Friday, 14 Oct 2011, 5:57 PM EDT
Published : Thursday, 13 Oct 2011, 8:42 PM EDT

By Henry Erb
GRAND HAVEN TOWNSHIP, Mich. (WOOD) - There will be no charges against a Grand Haven Township gun club that nearby residents claim is a danger to their homes and families.
According to the a review from Ottawa County Prosecutor's Office, the errant bullet that struck a contract worker in a subdivision not far from the North Ottawa Rod and Gun Club did come from practicing Grand Valley State University Department of Public Safety officers.
But the prosecutor's office determined that there was not enough evidence to blame the shooting on reckless or careless behavior, and that the shooting did not constitute a crime.
http://www.woodtv.com/dpp/news/local/ottawa_county/Prosecutor-No-charges-against-gun-club

So even when it does occur, no problem.

[DonP]

26. Obviously the problem is the police using the range - ban all police training.

That's all you could come up with? Two cases both by cops, with no charges filed? Well, that's enough reason to close them all down tomorrow.

[mikeb302000]

27. That's where that story comes from/

on my blog a couple commenters mentioned that without explanation.

But, when real lead comes crashing through homes, don't you think the range has to do something?

[Ready4Change]

38. Who was there first?

If the range was there first the homes shouldn't have been built in harms way. Even if the developer got permission to build, it still doesn't mean it wasn't a mistake, and still doesn't mean that the gun range CREATED the problem. It's like building on a flood plain, then complaining when the river washes away your home.

I looked over the gun ranges website, and maps of the area on Google. They've got good berms in place, and there is about a mile of forest between the range and homes to the North and East.

I suspect the REAL problem is that dang forest. Some developer probably wants to cut down all those dirty, non-revenue generating trees and build more homes. But the gun range is in his way. What to do? What to do...

[AtheistCrusader]

41. Only if it came from the range.

Which you and the accuser have not established.

[pipoman]

3. Seems that the developers of the housing development should be responsible

The Kitsap Rifle and Revolver Club was formally organized on November 11, 1926 , in place decades before anyone decided to encroach on their space to develop their 100k + housing development. Tough shit. The residents want something, they should offer to build it for the gun club. There are those here who think it is just dandy for Wal-Mart to be given peoples homes for development too..this is no different.


Unrec for op not participating on DU and advertising..

[beevul]

4. reminds me of those that move in next an airport...

then complain about the noise.

[Ready4Change]

35. I agree.

Whenever I read things like this I always wonder "Who was there first?" Whenever an article doesn't SAY who was there first, it makes me suspicious.

I think developers should be held accountable when they create friction like this. But they usually aren't. They've built, put money in their pockets and left town long before problem arise.

I've encountered this. A developer I knew wanted to build near an historic airport here in Maryland. Knew I was a pilot and asked why their development plan got rejected. I looked it over said the reason was very clear. They were going to build a multistory building right IN the approach path of the airport. Not UNDER the approach path. IN it.

Honest to god, the developer looked at me and said "What's the problem. Can't a pilot fly around a building?"

[AtheistCrusader]

5. This place is almost a hundred years old.

Lots of people like to gin up bullshit to try and close down the few existing ranges left. Issaquah Sportsmans Club does just fine with a baffle and berm, RIGHT NEXT TO A HIGH SCHOOL.

Don't want to hear it? Don't like it? Don't buy a house next to it.

It's not like nearly one century old gun ranges sneak up on you.

[aikoaiko]

6. I prefer due process to your opinion of right and wrong, and integrity.

[ileus]

7. Hopefully the fun club will win this one...keep your fingers crossed.

[mikeb302000]

28. that's a great freudian typo nt

[jmg257]

33. Likely not a typo - shooting guns is a blast!

[hack89]

8. They were there first.

the disgrace is how the developers endangered lives to make a buck.

[jmg257]

9. Pretty wild club...

"About five years ago, the club got noisier with discharges of large-caliber weapons, automatic weapons and explosions set off by firing guns into an explosive compound, Allison said. Cannons were fired on holidays about four times a year, he added, but the compound, called Tannerite, would be exploded unexpectedly about twice a month all year except for winter.


From comments to the article:

"Many moons ago I walked the DNR property sourounding the KRRC property. There were numerious sites where people had been shooting. Targets were bottles, washing machines, tree trunks, and other garbage left behind or dumped on the property.
The back stop for the bullets was nothing but BLUE SKY. Down range from there are the housing developments.
Pretty damn hard to prove the bullets originated from KRRC when people are out randomly shooting in open space."


Sounds like the developers chose...poorly, and the residents might be barking up the wrong tree.

[friendly_iconoclast]

14. Good catch- as usual, Mike forgot that people *will* research what he posts...

"You don't have to be factually inaccurate, et cetera...

[mikeb302000]

29. that didn't take any research and it certainly wasn't the

gotcha that you pretend.

Of course the developers chose there location badly. But there must have been building permits and city ordinances involved. Those would be the same ones governing the gun club.

You have to be completely biased to say the gun club should stay and keep on like thay are.

[friendly_iconoclast]

31. As opposed to just being shut down without legal recourse?

This is absolutely disgraceful. That place should have been shut down long ago. Don't these gun-rights people have any integrity at all?

A bullet went through the lady's wall and into her home and all these guys can do is hire lawyers to argue whether it came from the gun club or not?

We obvioulsy need a one-strike-you're-our rule for shooting ranges too.

Once again, due process is only for the "good". Remember my advice, Mike: Launder your shirts in cold water-it'll keep the black from
fading.

[rl6214]

42. Yeah, kinda like saying strip clubs have to be 1000 yards from

residences and churches and then building up the residences and churches around the strip clubs and then shutting them down because they are in violation of the law.

[PavePusher]

47. You have to be completely biased to say the gun club should be penalized...

without a shred of evidence or due process.

yep

[DissedByBush]

10. Don't those people in the houses have any integrity at all?

Move in next to a gun range, and then complain.

Too. Damn. Bad.

If they don't like it, they should offer to buy the range. Instead they're trying to get the county to do their dirty work.

We obviously need a one-strike rule for people in the houses. Bitch, and it becomes the range's property.

[SteveM]

12. Sounds like you wanna moral panic, Mike.

So, the next time some gun prohibitionist wants to shut down a range, all he/she has to do is sneak past the berms one night and lob a couple of .270s into someone's garage. Hey, better get in on the ground floor of that, Mike! (And don't worry about the ethics. You haven't worried about them before.)

[Hoopla Phil]

15. And another of Mike's threads goes down in flames as the truth comes out.

I should have recommended this thread. . .

[PavePusher]

19. I did it for you....

but I feel very dirty now. And it doesn't seem to have helped...

[spin]

16. So if a developer wants the land that the range sits on ...

or wants to develop other land closer downrange, all he has to do is to fire a shot through the walls of someone's house and the range gets shut down as it has no right to hire a lawyer to prove that the round was not fired from the range.

Or the shot is fired by one of the people who live in a near community who personally dislikes the sound of gun fire as it disturbs his enjoyment of rural living despite the fact that he bought his home knowing the range was nearby.

Or some irresponsible hunter fired the shot.

You obviously feel that the range and its members should have absolutely no rights to prove in court that they were not responsible for the incidents. How progressive of you. Please stay in Italy.

[friendly_iconoclast]

17. I hope he remembers to launder his shirts in cold water, as black fades easily.

Yes, I went there. And I'll do it again when necessary.

[rl6214]

18. And exactly what gun control law would you propose to prevent this?

Maybe don't build houses around a gun club?

What's absolutely disgraceful is your blog spamming and agenda driven hatred that should have been shut down long ago. Don't you have any integrity at all? Blogging from your UN office when you should be out feeding the children?

I gotta give you this mikey, no blind links to your blog in this post. Now if we could just get you to reply to a post here that you didn't start.

[beevul]

21. lolwut?

" Blogging from your UN office..."

Seriously?

[Hoopla Phil]

22. Yep seriously.

He posts from a UN office in Rome. IIRC the I.P. is from the United Nations World Food Program.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

32. that is what really bugs me about this. The UNWFP is paying him to work

to FEED people and he is doing this instead. the irony. Just get to work Mike. People all over the world are starving and you could be doing some good instead of drumming up some imaginary non-issues just to "toy" with people on a message board. Don't you have better things to do?
Are they paying you to post on this message board? Is this in your job description?

[rl6214]

43. Many have said that he is really part of an anti-gun arm of the UN

With the UN it wouldn't surprise me one bit.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

46. part of his job to post on DU?? wow.

:o :shrug:

[PavePusher]

20. "and all these guys can do is hire lawyers to argue whether it came from the gun club or not?"

You seem to advocate property seizure without due process.

Fuck that noise. Keep that shit in Italy.

[Atypical Liberal]

23. Shooting range was established in 1926 - 85 years ago.

According to their web site, this shooting range was established in 1926 - 85 years ago.

http://www.gunsafety.org/

It's likely that at the time it was established, it was out in the middle of nowhere, where open land was cheap and shooting was not a problem.

And, according to the Google satellite imagery, it's still a pretty secluded place:

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=4900%20Seabeck%20Hwy%20NW,%20Bremerton,%20WA%2098312

I've heard of these kinds of stories before - developers build up property around long-established shooting ranges and then complain about the ranges. In one case I remember hearing about, one of the residents produced a bullet, supposedly from his swimming pool, that had come from the range. Except there was no rifling on the bullet. Clearly it had never been fired.

[Ready4Change]

36. The place has good berms, as far as I can see from photos.

Photos on their site here: (Looks like they had a flood recently?)

http://www.gunsafety.org/photos.htm

Looks like their long range targets are cut back into a hillside, with berms built up around the shorter range targets. From what (little) I know, looks like a good setup.

[AtheistCrusader]

24. Oh, I know where this range is.

Full of shit as usual, Mike.

[Glassunion]

30. Well Mike, you do need to make sure the bullet came from that range.

There is a similar issue with a gun range near me. The range has been in operation since the 1940's. About ten years ago they built a bunch of McMansions on the downrange side of the range. When construction started the owner of the range made some changes... He enclosed the shooting booths, he doubled the height of the burm. Basically you cannot shoot over the burm if you wanted to. If you aim too high your bullet will be deflected by the concrete booth.

That however did not stop the folks from suing the gun range left and right. The residents claimed the noise was too loud, that bullets were flying into their homes, etc... One resident was arrested for filing a false report. She claimed that a bullet had left the range, came through her window and nearly hit her sleeping 3 year old daughter. As it tuns out the window was broken by a pellet gun and the bullet she claimed missed her daughter was never fired from a firearm. It was an unused bullet that you buy for reloading.

So far the range has never been successfully sued.

[Katya Mullethov]

40. Remember this guy ?

Shot down numerous times by zoning boards ,judges , and unanimously by his neighbors ?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x262702#262750
Mrs valentine told me that John and Sparky had a beer summit Saturday . Sparky apologized for causing
so much trouble and that he now feels the range is not a danger . John was polite , sipped his beer , but he aint buyin' it .

[Remmah2]

34. Is there a topographical map of the range vs local houses?

I'd like to review additional information.

[Ready4Change]

37. Not-so good one here...

http://www.trails.com/topo.aspx?lat=47.60815&lon=-122.77348&s=50&size=s&style=drgsr

This starts at a nearby airport just west of this area. You'll need to zoom and pan it around to find the area near the gun range, but it's still not very clear. Comparing with the Google maps location you can identify the nearby highway, which has a pretty identifiable bend.

(Note: Hmmm. Sometimes that link doesn't start you at that airport. Sometimes it starts with an overall view of the Seattle area. You'll need to zoom in on Bremerton, then into Erlands point, then into Camp Wesley Harris, before finding the correct bend in Seabeck Hwy West of the Camp. However, once you find the right spot, switching between Terrain and Topo views might show you what you want to see?)

[Atypical Liberal]

39. here

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=4900%20Seabeck%20Hwy%20NW,%20Bremerton,%20WA%2098312

[Remmah2]

45. I did a bird's eye view on Bing.

Lots of safety berms, no direct down range houses. Not a bad little design.

I do see a Navy Reserve center next door, wonder if they have a shooting range?

[Straw Man]

44. Due process is a mother, ain't it?

Don't you wish we could go back to the witch-trial ethos, where just an accusation would bring down judgement?