Begging felons to buy his handgun

[safeinOhio]

as it is perfectly legal.


asking 1200 or best offer in perfect working order shoots great
this is considered an antique therefore it is exempt from all federal gun laws meaning felons that are collectors of war memorobelia are welcome and no ffls are required for a legal transaction

http://limaohio.craigslist.org/atq/2457252269.html

Does that include homicidal maniacs as well as collectors?

[jpak]

1. Gun Cult-ure

yup

[Atypical Liberal]

27. 158-year-old culture, at that.

yup.

[aikoaiko]

48. Anti-Gun CULT-ture

[Lasher]

2. Not a good picture but that appears to be a Model 1851 Navy Colt.

The owner probably thinks it's a model 1843 because the cylinder is engraved with a scene of the victory of the Second Texas Navy at the Battle of Campeche on May 16, 1843. I always wanted one of those but I prefer the Model 1861 due to its more graceful lines.

[-..__...]

3. I'll give you $500.00 for it...

and not a penny more.

BTW... Guns for Sale belong in the DU Marketplace section...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=213

[Atypical Liberal]

28. Deal!

I'll take that deal! You can buy two new ones for that price from Cabelas.

[gejohnston]

4. war memorabilia has nothing to do with it

If it was made before 1898 it is exempt because of things like ammunition no longer being made, gun could not handle modern ammunition, and not likely to be used in crime. That said,

This pistol could have been made last week and would be exempt because it is a it does not use fixed ammunition (GCA-68 defines a firearm as using fixed ammunition, meaning not a muzzle loader) FWIW, a modern copy of a Gatling gun because it uses a crank instead of a trigger (NFA specifically defines machine gun as fire more than one round with one pull of the trigger).

I was in second grade and my mom was in high school respectively when these laws were passed, so don't bitch at me.

That said, The Remington revolvers were better designed than the Colts IMHO.

[TheWraith]

5. Is a lot of crime committed using guns made prior to 1899?

A lot of drive-by musketings?

[gejohnston]

7. Naww, he thinks someone will shoot down a plane with a .50 cal Hawkins

[Katya Mullethov]

14. The 57 caliber terror !

see below

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

21. I seem to remember that...

...if you aim a muzzle loader much above the horizon the primer falls off.

Does that sound right?

[-..__...]

8. I'm reasonably certain that a lot of gun crimes...

were committed using guns made prior to 1899.

I tried to look it up... but the FBI/DOJ/CDC-WISQUARS database doesn't go back that far.

:shrug:

[Katya Mullethov]

6. They can buy a genuine assault rifle

Mail order . Here's one that provided good service for some Federal units on Snodgrass Hill at the battle of Chickamauga . On the afternoon of 20 Sept. 1863, the second day of the battle, the 535 men of the 21st regiment of Ohio commanded by Lieut. Col. Dwella Stoughton of Sirwell’s brigade of Negley's division, posted on the far right of Thomas' line, expended 43,550 rounds along with some Enfield bullets (.57 caliber, but could be made to fit), and they repulsed 5 charges by much greater numbers of Confederates under Hindman.



They make a shotgun version which is perfectly legal to saw the barrel off of and make it extra crimey . "We" cant keep a lid on it forever , so expect a huge spike in Root Revolving Shotgun Crime once the word gets out !

[oneshooter]

9. That apears to be a brass frame repop of a 51 navy.

36 cal using a 80gr cast lead round ball, 20grain charge of 3Fg black powder and a percussion cap to ignite.

So you want federal background checks on antique firearms, cap lock, flint lock and match lock?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[ileus]

10. Anything black powder can be bought by anyone...new or old.

[Straw Man]

12. Not quite ...

Federal law doesn't bar it, but many state laws do. In NY State, anyone can possess the pistol alone as a "wallhanger," but if you also possess powder, cap, and ball, you need to have a handgun permit or you're in a heap of trouble. I'm not sure if you have to have all three to be in violation, or whether just one will do it.

I wonder if anyone has ever committed a crime using a black-powder firearm. In the last hundred years, I mean. Maybe one of our resident Google-mongers could find one.

[gejohnston]

13. or the 20th century for that matter.

[Straw Man]

16. Yes -- that's why I edited to "last hundred years."

I can't get used to living in the 21st century.

[MicaelS]

11. Since in most states you can buy black powder guns online

Like you would any other merchandise, no background check, what precisely is the issue?

[friendly_iconoclast]

15. Meh. No better than 3/10 on the Anslinger/Wertheim scale

If statistics don't favor your argument, go with the lurid anecdote. Works a treat on the weak-minded...

[safeinOhio]

17. case law

caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-circuit/1052861.html

Friday, February 7, 1992 was a busy day for the Central Trust Co., a Rochester, New York bank.   At 10:45 a.m. Mary Ellen Boone, an experienced teller, had just completed a business transaction with a customer when, looking up, she suddenly saw a man, later identified as defendant Gary L. Kirvan, pointing a shiny black gun at her.   The parties describe this gun as a .44 caliber black powder revolver, a replica of an antique.   Defendant placed the gun, together with a note, on the counter before her.   The note demanded all her cash and Kirvan ordered her to “o what the note says or you're dead.”   She handed him all her 100s, 50s, and 20s and, upon his waving the gun at her and telling her to “eep going,” she gave him, in addition, all the 10s, 5s, and singles in her top drawer.   After the defendant stuffed this cash amounting to $2,527 in his pockets, he fled.   Later, he was apprehended while committing another armed bank robbery in Lebanon, Tennessee.
Following a trial, a jury found defendant guilty of the armed bank robbery in Rochester.   He received a 30 month sentence, consecutive to the undischarged portion of his sentence for the Tennessee robbery.   Defendant now appeals, raising as the sole issue the propriety of a five-level sentence enhancement for the use of a firearm in the course of the robbery, rather than a three-level enhancement for the brandishing of a dangerous weapon.
The government agreed that the gun was an antique, but nonetheless maintained it was a firearm under the Guidelines.   In imposing the five-level upward adjustment, the district court reasoned that the antique gun fell within the relevant definition of “firearm,” see U.S.S.G. § 2B3.1 Application Note 1 (incorporating definition of “firearm” in U.S.S.G. § 1B1.1 Application Note 1(e)), and that the exclusion of antiques from the coverage of the Gun Control Act, see 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3) (1994), was inapplicable.   Defendant now appeals the sentence enhancement as inappropriate under Guidelines § 2B3.1.   We affirm.

[Straw Man]

23. Thanks. One point for you.

Maybe a Civil War reenactor with a meth habit?

[davepc]

18. yeah, over a foot long and 42oz heavy. Black powder to boot.

Perfect 'street' gun.

[one-eyed fat man]

19. 1843??

That must be one of those 90% traced to the US Mexican cartel guns. One General Santa Anna brought back from the Alamo.

You know, your tax money pays for a nifty website where you could find out what the law really says instead of spreading bullshit.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

THE GUN CONTROL ACT OF 1968
TITLE 18, UNITED STATES CODE, CHAPTER 44

§ 921 Definitions.

(a) As used in this chapter—

(3) The term "firearm" means

(A) any weapon (including a starter gun)which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;

(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;

(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or

(D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.


(16) The term "antique firearm"means—

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or

(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—

(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or

ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or

(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon
which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

20. Let me point out that...

...black powder weapons are still available, last I heard, to buy through the mail, without ID brand new.

[gejohnston]

24. and still made. Navy Arms used to sell kits that you build yourself

my brother put together a 69 caliber British Tower pistol, flintlock. Some states have separate hunting seasons for them like they do for archery. Ruger used to make a stainless steel cap and ball revolver called the Old Army.

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=15146_15087_15088

http://www.cabelas.com/pistols.shtml

[rl6214]

22. I thought craigslst didn't allow firearms

[Atypical Liberal]

25. ATF does not consider them to be firearms.

As I understand it, the ATF does not consider black powder weapons to be firearms, and you can buy them mail order direct to your home without going through an FFL dealer.

[Atypical Liberal]

26. $1200? That is a $100 pistol.

That guy is dreaming.

I own two of that exact pistol. Took 1st place at an N-SSA shoot with it.

It is a modern reproduction, a brass-framed 1851 Navy revolver. You can buy them new for about $170:

http://tinyurl.com/6aq22vk

These are back-powder, cap-and-ball revolvers. You have to pour the powder into each cylinder and drive in a ball with the loading lever. Takes about 5 minutes to load all 6 chambers if you are quick.

Like all black-powder muzzle-loaders, anyone can buy them through the mail direct to their door with no background check.

These are exactly the muzzle-loaders that so many people in this forum have claimed are all the second amendment allows people to own.

[ileus]

35. I didn't know Hipoint made black powder pistols....LOL

[Straw Man]

46. The seller is trying to pass it off as an authentic antique ...

... without saying as much: lots of weasel-wording in the ad. The seller is a sleaze. Notice the "$1" header and then the "1200" (no dollar sign) price? And, of course, the "felon" pitch.

[Remmah2]

29. Is that a .50 cal assault weapon?

But just a little vintage.

[slackmaster]

31. I have a short-barreled side-by-side 20-gauge shotgun that I bought mail order

Behold the Pedersoli 20x20 Howdah Hunter pistol.



The LeMat pistol is really interesting. It's a revolver and a short-barreled shotgun combined.

[slackmaster]

30. I've bought three black powder muzzle-loading handguns by mail order recently

It's nice not having to use my Federal Firearms License or have to be home to accept delivery in person.

Buying real black powder is much more of a PITA. It's classified as an explosive, and I am not aware of any vendor who will ship less than five pounds of it at a time.

Nobody carries it locally any more. Storage requirements post-9/11 are onerous and confusing.

[one-eyed fat man]

32. There is always Plan B

During the War of 1812 Mammoth Cave, along with many other famous and obscure Kentucky caves were mined for saltpeter. We have one such cave on the farm. The same methods used in the eighteenth century will still yield 1 pound of saltpeter from 200 pounds of cave dirt.

The spring that is by this cave still runs good pure water (It meets or exceeds all standards for drinking water and no yuppified plastic bottle to throw away, just pipe it to he house.} The stand of willows for making the charcoal for powder production planted over 200 years are still there.

EXAMINING EARLY NINETEENTH CENTURY SALTPETER CAVES: AN ARCHAEOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVE

...as the song says, "A country boy can survive."

[DonP]

33. It's the Black powder Loophole! - Brady press release to follow

Not going to fit in a gang bangers pants.

I have visions of gang bangers switching to "easily" acquired cap and ball revolvers that are over a foot long and weigh in at almost 3 or 4 pounds.

Jamming two of them (10 shots, no reloads!) in the waistband of their pants means they will have almost 8 pounds of old iron and will drop them all to their ankles, hobble them and make them easy for even the chubby cops to run down.

Now we just have to wait for the Brady press release and for the BATFE to set up a sting operation where they give gang members the pistols to "trace" them.

[ileus]

34. Next up broadheads and carbon arrows.

[safeinOhio]

36. I think my point in the post

was about the individual advertising to convicted felons as, here is a gun you can legally buy. However, all of the replies here bring up another point.
Yes they are legal because they are worthless as a weapon in the this world of gun technology. They take forever to load. If you allow the barrel to point down the load falls out. They very large and heavy, making them hard to conceal. Even with all of this being true, I'd guess they were 50 years ahead of the handguns that the Founding Fathers and drafters of the Constitution were familiar when they wrote the Second Amendment. I would like to thank everyone for bringing this up and look forward to all of the new comments on how useful and they are in self defense and have nothing to do with interpreting the original intent of the 2nd. You are the folks that have made the argument for making them legal for anyone to buy all about context.

[Name removed]

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[Blown330]

38. The load falls out when pointed down?

So how did they carry them in holsters way back then? Your imagination is running away again.

[safeinOhio]

39. Yup, and trying to imagine

how they kept a charge in the flashpan back in the 18th century. Can't find any vintage 18th century holsters anywhere.

[MicaelS]

40. You don't know what you're talking about

These are CAP and BALL revolvers. Cap as in "percussion cap", there is no flashpan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percussion_cap

And the lead projectiles were always cast slightly larger, so when rammed down the cylinder or barrel it would fit tightly over the powder charge. Thus the load would NOT "fall out".

[gejohnston]

41. flash pan has a cover that is moved the the hammer flint hits it.

Didn't you watch Daniel Boone as a kid? Besides, you are more than a few years off. This is a cap and ball or percussion, where the cap acts like a primer. They do have holsters.

[slackmaster]

43. Does the concept of "frizzen" have no meaning for you at all?

I bought my first flintlock weapon two years ago. It's challenging, and a lot of fun.

I got a reproduction Harpers Ferry pistol from Dixie Gun Works.

[Straw Man]

47. Try harder.

Can't find any vintage 18th century holsters anywhere.

http://www.tortugatrading.com/engine/inspect.asp?Item=1523&Filter=Arms,+Armor&Name=An+Antique+Colonial+Period+%28Single%29+Flintlock+Saddle+Holster.

That's a real one. Replicas are even easier to find.

[slackmaster]

42. LMAO!

Real men use flintlocks, in the rain.

They take forever to load.

That's why you carry them loaded.

If you allow the barrel to point down the load falls out.

If that happens, you didn't load the weapon correctly.

[Glassunion]

44. So. In your words. What is the original intent of the 2nd Amendment?

[Straw Man]

45. What on Earth are you on about?

First, you obviously haven't a clue about black-powder weapons and how they work. Second, they were the state of the art when they were produced. Now they are very far from it. That's the "context." You seem to think you have scored some meaningful point, but I fail to see it. Perhaps you could elucidate.

[Name removed]

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