Hey - check out what my freeper friend sent me ...

[PittLib]

What I wrote:

It's all about priorities. I can understand wanting smaller government and I can respect fiscal conservatism. But how many sacrifices have to made by other Americans before you realize that he (*)is fucking everything up? Just because you benefit, it doesn't make him effective or right. It is bullheaded self interest ... and it's nauseating to hear white collars with a stake in corporate America try to rationalize a misguided war while their eyes are firmly on their bottom lines not enemy lines. If your issue is smaller government, fine. But do not try to feed me crap as
justification, because IMHO you are selling me and everyone else out for your own interest.
You are right ... it's not about republicans or democrats, it's about Bush being a great big f@#king disaster.






His response:

In a Democracy everyone gets to decide what is of value to them...
You are ignoring the fact that capitalism makes democracy possible in this
country....and vice versa.
Either you agree or you don't.

I don't see how you can't...who pays your paycheck? Last time I
checked, (restaurant name) wasn't owned by tax payers.


Maybe you'd be serving the country better if you worked a diner ... instead
of choosing to serve the wealthiest people in your area? :-)

Chances are that you probably work harder than most people at the diner....
should you make less money... or should you pay additional taxes so funding
can go to the people that make less...who work at the diner and not
(restaurant name)?


People can vote in the direction they want. We don't have to agree on everything. We can agree to disagree. However, you've got to seriously
back up the arguments with fact.



This robinhood crap is getting old. Fair is Fair. Everyone should be
treated equal... everyone should be taxed the same... and just like
companies, the government should be held accountable for being so
inefficient.

I paid more in taxes last year than you make in salary .... explain to me
why that is... I work 70+ hours a week. Should I be penalized for not
sitting on my ass watching TV all day?


If you want to be a Socialist, move to another country and see how well that
works out.... show me a healthcare system in any country that actually works
100%. Everything can be evolved, no argument there. Or maybe you should
try Iran on for size....
However, quite frankly, I'm not interested in paying even more taxes so
people can go abuse the system... if it was up to me, everyone would pay
for their doctor's visists b/c I haven't met a doctor yet that believes
unified government healthcare is a good idea. What's the motivation to
spend so many years studying to be a doctor if you are going to get shafted
and sued?

Sacrifices.... that's right. Freedom isn't FREE.


The "fucking everything up" isn't a solid argument. Fucking What up?
I think the democrats fuck more things up than anyone...
I'm not saying the Republicans represent all Republican party views.
Likewise, there is NO FUCKING WAY THAT YOU AGREE WITH EVERYTHING THE
DEMOCRATS have slated.


We live in the best country in the world - get used to it.

:grr:

(edited to add) I almost forgot this little gem:

He wrote:
PS
It isn't just Bush....

The people working with Bush are brilliant...

I wouldn't say he is a "fucking disaster".... that can't be measured and
you haven't made a case for it being true.

It is too bad that Kerry won the democratic ticket - just goes to show how
fragmented the democrats are...

[Sandpiper]

1. Typical Wingnut

I've got mine, so fuck you.

[sniffa]

2. aha! he hasn't seen the Latest List

that ranked the greatest countries in the worLd. the US now faLLs in 3rd pLace behind france, and cuba.

[sui generis]

3. but that is the issue here -

people have to HAVE jobs at affordable wages in order to be consumers so that goods and services will be bought and sold.

"Robin Hood" is a ridiculous fairy tale that many self-proclaimed high income people buy into.

I would tell your friend, if you don't want to pay taxes, then move to another country. Doctors don't want unified healthcare because IT REDUCES THEIR INCOME. And that is the only reason. Everything about the ideological differences between republicans and democrats boils down to seeing how much money we can keep from giving to the government.

And for a seemingly educated person your friend has an awful lot of bogeymen. There is no such thing as a "welfare queen". Abuses of the system, when they happen, happen in spite of every precaution, not because the system exists. Your high and mighty friend should actually go spend a week with a social worker. Social programs work, not for everyone, but for enough people to make having welfare and mental health and indigent health programs worth having and worth funding.

Your friend is probably the type who thinks it's better to put an innocent person in prison than it is to let a criminal slip through the cracks, and yet he doesn't want to pay the taxes that must cover the cost of warehousing 2 out of every one hundred people in America.

It's a profound ideological difference, and he is right about one thing only: you should agree to disagree and talk about other things instead.

[PittLib]

5. great reply...

Can I borrow it - with all due credit ... of course?

[sui generis]

16. of course - it's community property!

/nt

[JuniorPlankton]

4. It's a tough call

The whole thing about "let's share everything" and "everybody on his own" is very tricky. Clearly, that particular freeper overdoes it. I have a lot of coworkers who are like that. On the other hand, having grown up in the USSR, I can assure you that the other extreme is no good.

You should point out, though, that we pay the most for our health care system with mediocre results. Nobody says that the whole system should be nationalized. But to have a higher minimum, a safety net, is a great idea. A combination of minimum public protection plus an optional private policy works better. (For example, Germany)

Ask you friend what happens if a brick falls on his head and makes him a quadriplegic? (No, of course it cannot happen to HIM)
What about (no fault) Workers Compensation insurance coverage which is mandatory in this country? Was it a bad idea?

Arggh, they are hopeless!

[Union Thug]

9. But the soviet union didn't practice 'the other extreme'

The corrupt State Capitalism of the 'communist' soviet union certainly did not practice the values of socialism.

[PittLib]

10. you have to keep in mind -

I never suggested anything that could be construed as "socialist" or "communist" but I am called those anyway. I don't recall ever having mentioned any of these issues aside from criticizing the war ... so his tirade stems mostly from a gross misinterpretation of what the democratic party stands for, which seems so focused on the domestic with a complete ignorance of the international. But what does he care? He'll never see war.

[DoBotherMe]

11. Remember what John Nash said

"Adam Smith was wrong. Everyone wins when they do what's best for themselves and the group." Nobel winning Games Theory.

[PittLib]

12. Oh -

please don't mention quadriplegics. My 23 year-old uninsured stepbrother was in an accident (not work related), in July. He has a 1 1/2 year-old daughter and he is now a quad on a respirator.

[Union Thug]

6. This guy is your friend?

How do you manage that? I think I'd just hit him with a 2x4 and call it good.

[The Backlash Cometh]

7. I didn't read the entire response from your buddy. Got as far as

the part that mentions that the restaurant pays your paycheck, not the government. If it weren't for the government ensuring that restaurants meet certain standards, nobody would take a chance on the E-Coli Special. We'd all be out raising our own cows and shooting our own game. Government is necessary because capitalist will get as greedy as they're allowed to be, and have little concern for anything they can get away with. That's why they want to do away with lawyers.

[Demit]

8. oh boo fucking hoo, he works 70 hours a week. What about the folks

who put in that time working two and three minimum wage jobs just to keep their heads above water? If time spent working equaled lots more money, these folks would be moving into the McMansion next door to your friend.

And that doctors getting sued thing-- medical malpractice suits as a cause of their high premiums is a myth. Insurance companies raking in the profits is more like it. But hey, that's capitalism for ya. So your friend should be lovin those high premiums. Tell him that's his "sacrifice" for capitalism-ergo-democracy.

[murielm99]

23. If he was working 70 hours a week, he would not have the time

to compose scurrilous e-mails.

[jgardner]

13. One of my best friends

is an MD, and she is a strong supporter of National Healthcare. She became a doctor to help people, not for the paycheck.

[PittLib]

14. yeah ... my doc friend is voting for Kerry, but

because he believes separation of church and state is a major issue (he's an atheist).

[Joe Chi Minh]

15. You can't

argue with ignorance, PittLib.

When a wise man and a fool argue, you get two fools. To try to convince someone whose most elementary assumptions are muddle-headed will reflect a degradation of your own powers of reason. His assumptions will be adhered to all the more strongly, because he instinctively understands that the very basis of his beliefs are under terminal threat. Don't even try and jump into a whirlpool, after a drowning man, to stab him in the back.

It's our God-given task to shape order out of chaos, but we need to resign ourselves to the fact that there are plenty of people who are, and are likely to remain, very much part of that chaos. Even the motive power behind much of it. We can still hope and pray, if we like the person, that their case is not terminal, they're likely to need a life-changing experience, before they will be susceptible to reason.

[Momgonepostal]

17. "you probably work harder than most people at the diner...."

Is he kidding? People that work at diners don't work at hard as people who work at nice restaurants?

Typical Republican. "If I make more money, it's because I work harder than you do, you lazy ass."

[RaleighNCDUer]

22. Back in my carefree youth I worked in both diners and 4-star

restaurants. I guarantee, I worked harder in the diners. It's always seemed to me that the farther down the totem pole you are, the harder you work for less reward.

[JimmyJazz]

18. I really, really hate the "if you don't like how things

are run in this country than leave" bullshit. It doesn't make any sense. In my book it's right up there with "nanny, nanny, boo, boo."

The other thing that pisses me off (stand back, I'm on a roll :7 ), is when people make the "bigger v. smaller" government argument. Here's what I tell them: "It's not bigger v. smaller, it's a government that makes decisions that are based on the interests of the people v. a government that makes decisions based on the interests of Halliburton." (It gets them every time.!)

[PittLib]

19. funny thing ...

we were roommates in college after I spent a year abroad. I've lived in 2 countries for a total 16 months - he's traveled on business. He really has no idea what he's talking about (or why we are the "greatest country on earth") as he's never lived anywhere else. Quite frankly, leaving isn't such a bad idea, but I won't give them the satisfaction. I swear he got this from a conservative web site and just did a cut & paste job. :eyes:

[Hello_Kitty]

20. He's a braggart, to boot

"I paid more in taxes last year than you make in salary .... explain to me
why that is..."

Typical arrogant, self important prick. 'I can buy and sell you'. Oh really, wow, aren't you big and important. Well, after reading his tired old stale arguments that were irrelevant 20 years ago when they were being spouted, I'm not impressed. He also whines in a whole paragraph about how he shouldn't pay taxes and then follows up with a statement about how we need to make sacrifices. Apparently, not him though. What a tool. You deserve better friends than that.

[PittLib]

21. I guess I should note ...

he sent me an e-mail telling me that he was simply yanking my chain and could argue both sides. He didn't think I would take him seriously. Hmmm ... It does sound like canned freeper crap - too unoriginal even for him but ... :shrug:

While I love to argue, just for the sake of it ... I can't really be objective at this point. My blood is boiling.

[Brewman_Jax]

24. You could send him "A Day in the Life of Joe Republican"

found at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2474715 and various other places in the archives

I've never met a neo-con/conservative/freeper that didn't flip-flop when it comes to use of government services.

Also, you can ask him when he's giving the money back to the government, since he's a "self-made man."
_______

A Day In The Life of Joe Republican

Joe gets up at 6:00am to prepare his morning coffee. He fills his pot full of good clean drinking water because some liberal fought for minimum water quality standards.

He takes his daily medication with his first swallow of coffee. His medications are safe to take because some liberal fought to insure their safety and work as advertised.

All but $10.00 of his medications are paid for by his employers medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance, now Joe gets it too because his employer needs to offer competitive benefits to hire the best people.

Joe prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs this day. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

Joe takes his morning shower reaching for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with every ingredient and the amount of its contents because some liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained.

Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some tree hugging liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air.

Joe drives to work in one of the safest cars in the world because some liberal fought to raise safety standards and emission controls.

Joe begins his work day; he has a good job with good pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe's employer pays these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed he'll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some Liberal didn't think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

Its noon time, Joe needs to make a Bank Deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC up to $100,000 because some liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from greedy, unscrupulous bankers like the ones who ruined the banking system before the depression.

Joe needs to pay his Fannie Mae underwritten Mortgage and his below market federal student loan because some liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his life-time.

Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He arrives at his boyhood home. He was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans. The house didn't have electric until some big government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification. (Those rural Republican's might still be sitting in the dark!)

He is happy to see his dad who is now retired. His dad lives on Social Security and his union pension because some liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to. After his visit with dad he gets back in his car for the ride home.

He turns on a radio talk show, the host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. (He doesn't tell Joe that his beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day)

Joe agrees, "We don't need those big government liberals ruining our lives; after all, I'm a self made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have".

(Argyle's addendum, based on situation of actual freeper.)

Joe's job was eliminated by a corporate buy-out, funded by Bush's* corporate "tax relief" to generate and create jobs. :eyes: The new bigger company didn't need him anymore. Joe gets an unemployment check every week for 26 weeks because some bleeding-heart liberal thought that people shouldn't lose their homes while they struggle to get a new job. After Joe rants about those "tax-and-spend liberals," the next sentence is, "I'm glad I have this 3rd interview next week, because my unemployment is about to run out."