Need some replies to the scare tactic e-mail being sent.

[YewNork]

Just got the following e-mail entitled - The Cost of Socialism. Need some replies to send back countering what the sender is saying.

Some obvious things are the fact that the message adds a "supposed" income tax rate and a value added tax rate to give you a "total".
Additionally, there is nothing to confirm these income tax rates, and whether they are average, overall, or marginal.

Is there anything you can see to counter what is being said?



The Value Added Tax (VAT) is similar to a sales tax. It is added as an additional cost to products at the point of sale, and as some products are used in further manufacture the original VAT levy becomes a credit against the total VAT added to the cost of the final product. At the end the VAT does not show up as a tax like a normal sales tax would. Its just part of the cost of the product. It is important to hide it as people tend to get aggravated if they see a 15 or 20 percent addition for tax on products they are buying.


Subject: The cost of socialism



Current European tax rates:



United Kingdom

Income Tax: 50%
VAT: 17.5% TOTAL: 67.5%



Germany
Income Tax: 45%
VAT: 19% TOTAL: 64%


France
Income Tax: 40%
VAT: 19.6% TOTAL: 59.6%


Greece
Income Tax: 40%
VAT: 25% TOTAL: 65%


Spain
Income Tax: 45%
VAT: 16% TOTAL: 61%



Portugal
Income Tax: 42%
VAT: 20% TOTAL: 62%


Sweden
Income Tax: 55%
VAT: 25% TOTAL: 80%



Norway
Income Tax: 54.3%
VAT: 25% TOTAL: 79.3%



Netherlands
Income Tax: 52%
VAT: 19% TOTAL: 71%



Denmark
Income Tax: 58%
VAT: 25% TOTAL: 83%


Finland
Income Tax: 53%
VAT: 22% TOTAL: 75%




If you’ve started to wonder what the real costs of “socialism” are going to be, once the full program in these United States hits your wallet, take a look at the table. As you digest these mind-boggling figures, keep in mind that in spite of these astronomical tax rates, these countries are still not financing their social welfare programs exclusively from tax revenues! They are deeply mired in public debt of gargantuan proportions. Greece has reached the point where its debt is so huge it is in imminent danger of defaulting. That is the reason the European economic community has intervened to bail them out. If you’re following the financial news, you know Spain and Portugal are right behind Greece.

The United States is now heading right down the same path. The “VAT” tax in the table is the national sales tax that Europeans pay. Stay tuned because that is exactly what you can expect to see the administration proposing after the fall elections. The initial percentage in the United States isn’t going to be anywhere near the outrageous numbers you now see in Europe. Guess what, the current outrageous numbers in Europe didn’t start out as outrageous either. They started out as minuscule—right around the 1% or 2% where they will start out in the United States. Magically however, they ran up over the years to where they are now. Expect the same thing here.

It’s time to rethink the ‘American Dream’ idea: It is the notion that with hard work and perseverance, anybody can get ahead economically here. Do you think that can ever happen with tax rates between 60% and 80%? Think again. With the government taking that percentage of your money, your life will be exactly like life in Europe. You will never be able to buy a home. You will never buy a car. You will never send your children to college. Let’s not shuffle the battle cry of the socialists under the rug either. It’s always the same cry. “Equalize” income. “Spread the wealth” to the “poor” (whoever they are). “Level” the economic playing field. Accomplish that and everything will be rosy.

It’s time to take a really hard look at reality. Greece is a perfect example. Despite the “socialism” system that has ruled this country for decades, with a 65% tax rate, they are drowning in public debt, would have defaulted without hundreds of billions in bailout money, and still. . .20% of their population lives in “poverty.” What has all that “socialism” money bought, besides ultimate power for the politicians running the show? Do you think these people are "free"? They're not. They are slaves to their economic "system."

People, we are at a tipping point in America. We all know it. Turn this around right now or your grandchildren will be massing in the streets of this once-great country, just as the people of Greece now are. Economic slavery is slavery, just the same. Carefully and deeply consider what it takes to throw off the yoke of slavery, once it takes hold and settles over your neck.

[ET Awful]

1. First, for the moron who wrote this to be accurate, you would have to spend 100% of your income on

taxable merchandise. Actually, you would have to first tax 100% of your income, then spend 100% of it before taxes for that total to work out.

So, let's take the UK example. If you make 100,000 a year (of whatever monetary unit you chose).

First, you would have to pay 50,000 in income tax to account for 50% tax rate.

In order for the total tax rate to come out to the cited 67%, you would then have to SPEND another 100,000 taxed at 17%.

Then, you would have to total those two tax amounts and deduct them from the original amount.

After all, there is no other way that you could say that the income tax rate plus the VAT equals a total tax rate.

[YewNork]

6. Correct

Of course, the original poster might say that he (or she) never claimed it was a total tax rate, merely that it was a total which is simply the sum of two or more numbers,
and it is the readers who are implying that it is a total "tax rate".

But you're absolutely correct.

[edgineered]

2. being a noobie here

i'll bite.

but first let me comment: Read more posts

[Make7]

3. Next we're gonna come for your guns! ( n/t )

[William Z. Foster]

4. half the people here agree with that

That is why we cannot counter it.

[TreasonousBastard]

5. Well, let's just take the UK for now...

and use Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_United_Kingdom

Income tax rates actually range from 20-50%, with much of the same sort of exemptions, deductions, and loopholes we have. There is a zero bracket for really low wage earners. British income tax started in 1798, btw, long before anyone thought of socialism. Oh, and there's no "state" income tax like we have here.

The VAT is 17.5%, but only on much of the stuff you buy, and there is no sales tax. Sales tax here is 8.25%, so the savings here is around 9% on TVs restaurant meals, and stuff-- enough to notice, depending on how much stuff you buy.

The Brits don't pay real estate or school taxes, but they do pay a "council tax" that averages a little over 1,100 pounds a year-- a lot less than combined county, town, and maybe even state real estate taxes I see.

They don't pay Social Security or Medicare taxes, either, but there's a National Health Insurance contribution that could be as high as 11%.

And there's the usual inheritance, capital gains, and other taxes and fees you'll find anywhere.

Now, for the real question-- why are there no vast hordes of Brits, Germans, Swedes, and other Western Europeans storming our shores for our tax breaks? Why do they seem reasonably happy, and quite healthy, btw, with their own situations?

[MrMonk]

7. This is going to shock the Europeans that I know.

They probably had no idea that they were unable to do so much.

"With the government taking that percentage of your money, your life will be exactly like life in Europe. You will never be able to buy a home. You will never buy a car. You will never send your children to college."

You will never take six weeks of vacation. You will never have your health care paid for. You will have to share your bath water.

[YewNork]

8. Well, the USA's total would be 56.75%

It would appear that the person who wrote the article is quoting the highest marginal tax rates. For example, in the UK, the 50% tax rate is on income that exceeds 150,000 GBP.

If you want to use that same methodology of quoting the highest tax rates, even if everyone doesn't actually pay that tax, then the listing for the US in that original e-mail would be:



United States
Income Tax: 46%
Sales Tax: 10.75% TOTAL: 56.75%


The income tax was calculated by combining the highest federal income tax rate of 35% and the highest state income tax rate (Hawaii's) of 11%.
Sales Tax quoted is the combined state and local sales tax rate in Pico Rivera, California, and is the highest sales tax in the US.

And, don't forget that we also pay for our health insurance, when insurance companies choose to sell it to us in addition to all that.