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Religion

In reply to the discussion: Shroud of Turin [View all]

okasha

(11,573 posts)
67. Actually, your excitable friend
Fri Jul 19, 2013, 03:31 PM
Jul 2013

may have inadvertently provided a bit of evidence in favor of the photgraphic origin of the image. While the collagen medium he describes is not appropriate for tempera, it is the kind of medium (basically gelatin from animal sources) used to make photographic emulsion, the mixture coated onto the paper or other support that actually creates the image from darkened silver particles. I'm not clear yet whether McCrone claimed to find particles of vermilion or traces of mercury that he claimed indicated the presence of vermilion, which is extracted from cinnabar, a mercury bearing ore. If it is the presence of mercury he claimed, then again, we connect to early photo processes. Daguerre developed the first durable photo images in the presence of mercury vapor some 500 years later.

The lack of other early photographic negatives isn't surprising. If this one hadn't been carefully preserved as a relic, it wouldn't exist now, either. Bear in mind--it is a negative image. A negative image would not be intelligible to most people even today, much less medieval folk who had never seen one before. Look around your home or your office. If you display photographs, they're positive prints; the negatives are presumably tucked away somewhere in an envelope. To put it bluntly, there wouldn't have been any market for negative pictures of grandpa. Much better to get one of the clerks from the local monastery to paint a nice little tempera miniature of the old fella.

The other thing to bear in mind is that we have lost far more medieval and Renaissance art than we now have, including portraits of kings and queens. For example, Hans Holbein was working for Henry VIII by the 1530's. Presumably he would have painted Henry's second queen, Anne Boleyn, and probably her daughter, the future Elizabeth I. Yet those paintings either have not survived or have not been found. We don't have a verified picture of H's #5 wife, Katherine Howard, or of Jane Grey, the queen for nine days. And here we're talking about an era in which monarchs actively collected art and recognized its value.

Fiber art is of any kind is far more fragile. The sad truth is that even the shroud, if it had not been given into the custody of the ruling house of Savoy, would likely have wound up in a petticoat or as a tablecloth when the image faded and would have been lost forever. If there were any other such images, they likely met such a fate. As with actual paintings, we have very little in the way of fabric art from the medieval or renaissance periods. Many of the pieces that do survive are, like the shroud, unique.

If there is further testing, I hope the Bishop of Turin will allow a wider range of tests than previously. Actually, I hope the Church will relinquish custory of the shroud altogether. One thing Nickell says that is absolutely indisputable, and that is that the fabric is extremely fragile and should not be exposed to light any more than necessary. It needs to be stored flat, in a lightproof archival container, and kept in an environment controlled for temperature and humidity. And while I'm sure the Turin cathedral staff and sisters handle it with great care and love, it needs to be in the hands of professional conservators.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Shroud of Turin [View all] refrescanos Jul 2013 OP
They HAVE to lie about it Politicalboi Jul 2013 #1
Who is "they?" okasha Jul 2013 #11
Just a guess... Lordquinton Jul 2013 #14
Do not have cable but I keep hearing how "The History Channel " is rewriting history lunasun Jul 2013 #58
Science in the hands of religionists defacto7 Jul 2013 #2
It's a painting skepticscott Jul 2013 #3
Yes, exactly right. JNelson6563 Jul 2013 #4
I don't know what it is but there's no paint on it. rug Jul 2013 #6
It's anatomically incorrect muriel_volestrangler Jul 2013 #7
And the head is 5% disproportionate. rug Jul 2013 #8
Rug is correct that it's not painted. okasha Jul 2013 #13
Rug is wrong, as usual skepticscott Jul 2013 #16
Not to say you're wrong again, scottie, but the term here would be brunaille, not grisaille. rug Jul 2013 #17
Do some real research, ruggie skepticscott Jul 2013 #22
Lol, lovely talking to you again, as always. rug Jul 2013 #29
In other words, you have nothing but blather skepticscott Jul 2013 #41
The only time I'm surrounded by blather is when you go off on one of your usual tangents. rug Jul 2013 #51
Paint.... schmaint AlbertCat Jul 2013 #27
You know, if you would clear your mind of preconceived notions every so often, you'll do better. rug Jul 2013 #30
Yes, more idiots trying to be relevant skepticscott Jul 2013 #42
He's down to sputtering and name-calling. okasha Jul 2013 #46
Why so adamant? AlbertCat Jul 2013 #49
I' glad to see you approach the study of unusual phenomena with an open mind. rug Jul 2013 #50
I' glad to see you approach the study of unusual phenomena with an open mind. AlbertCat Jul 2013 #65
I agree WolverineDG Jul 2013 #28
It is a remarkable artifact. okasha Jul 2013 #35
Poor okasha skepticscott Jul 2013 #44
While what you describe edhopper Jul 2013 #66
Actually, your excitable friend okasha Jul 2013 #67
Sorry, but I provided no such thing skepticscott Jul 2013 #68
The problem isn't missing works edhopper Jul 2013 #70
In all likelihood, she knows better skepticscott Jul 2013 #71
What's questionable, ed? okasha Jul 2013 #74
You really think edhopper Jul 2013 #75
No, I was not referring okasha Jul 2013 #76
Follow up. okasha Jul 2013 #79
There is zero evidence for photographic processes before the 19th century. Warren Stupidity Jul 2013 #80
Before I go further edhopper Jul 2013 #9
Not yet. But I'm pretty sure there's no paint on it. rug Jul 2013 #12
Discredited? Hardly skepticscott Jul 2013 #15
Discredited, totally. rug Jul 2013 #18
Just for starters, okasha Jul 2013 #19
McCrone received skepticscott Jul 2013 #24
Belief is stronger edhopper Jul 2013 #25
Belief in what, ed? okasha Jul 2013 #36
it's not a painting edhopper Jul 2013 #38
Good. We agree that it's not a painting. okasha Jul 2013 #45
He did it back in the 80s edhopper Jul 2013 #47
Assuming the picture on the cover of his book okasha Jul 2013 #60
Of course you ignore the fact skepticscott Jul 2013 #61
Let me check your list, scottie . . . . rug Jul 2013 #39
And of course you can back this up with facts skepticscott Jul 2013 #23
That book is to chemistry what Dan Brown is to history. rug Jul 2013 #31
More ignorant, hand-waving dismissal skepticscott Jul 2013 #40
Yes, a link to a chemical journal is a hand-waving dismisal. rug Jul 2013 #52
Since you haven't read McCrone's book skepticscott Jul 2013 #63
Lol! "wouldn't have understood it if you did" rug Jul 2013 #64
I went to Turin back in the 70's to see this thing... damyank913 Jul 2013 #5
I never believed it had anything to do with Jesus. hrmjustin Jul 2013 #10
I prefer the Spear of Destiny, a far more legitimate relic: dimbear Jul 2013 #20
We could of course build an ark... uriel1972 Jul 2013 #21
Good evidence that religion is a scam... MellowDem Jul 2013 #26
Lol, lol, lol. rug Jul 2013 #32
I want to get something straight edhopper Jul 2013 #33
I do believe you're reasonably literate, ed. okasha Jul 2013 #34
i am not clear edhopper Jul 2013 #37
The simple, straightforward answer is no. okasha Jul 2013 #43
OK, so you don't think it's a painting. trotsky Jul 2013 #48
See my post 35 okasha Jul 2013 #53
Unfortunately that is not visible to me due to the way DU's ignore feature works. trotsky Jul 2013 #55
Yes, but can't do it till back to regular okasha Jul 2013 #56
That short version will do just fine, thanks. trotsky Jul 2013 #57
My whole dispute with the person okasha Jul 2013 #59
Your reasons were uninformed skepticscott Jul 2013 #62
I saw a show on that Marrah_G Jul 2013 #69
Very. okasha Jul 2013 #72
I'd love it! Marrah_G Jul 2013 #73
The person who made the photograph okasha Jul 2013 #78
thank you :) Marrah_G Jul 2013 #81
This. Lint Head Jul 2013 #54
The history channel is so full of lies it ought rurallib Jul 2013 #77
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