Religion

CrispyQ

(40,407 posts)

4. Is God a Taoist?

Sun Nov 4, 2018, 09:51 AM

Nov 2018

Is God a Taoist?
by Raymond M. Smullyan, 1977

http://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/godTaoist.html

It's a dialog between a mortal & God on free will. It's been a long time since I read it, but I remember enjoying it. I was surprised to find it online.

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Do we have FREE WILL? [View all] Soph0571 Nov 2018 OP

'Free Will' is complex. It becomes more complex when . . . empedocles Nov 2018 #1

Yes, but only to the extent that we are KPN Nov 2018 #2

Makes you feel sorry for Judas packman Nov 2018 #3

Is God a Taoist? CrispyQ Nov 2018 #4

We have free will, within the parameters that limit us. MineralMan Nov 2018 #5

Well, that could be a narrower definition of "free will", since pretty much everything has limits... TreasonousBastard Nov 2018 #8

It is the definition I use. MineralMan Nov 2018 #9

Well, you certainly think you have free will, but there is that nagging question about... TreasonousBastard Nov 2018 #11

It's a matter of scale, really. MineralMan Nov 2018 #12

But are YOU making the choices or are the choices being made for you? You think Doodley Nov 2018 #77

Theologians ask about Free Will in the context edhopper Nov 2018 #6

With or without gods, is the universe pre-determined? Einstein gave us the first hint... TreasonousBastard Nov 2018 #10

Ah, whether time is a series of cause and effect edhopper Nov 2018 #14

For an individual's existence, larger concepts about time are unnecessary. MineralMan Nov 2018 #15

but is making a decision edhopper Nov 2018 #16

You have to give an unfalsifyable definition of free will first marylandblue Nov 2018 #17

Talking in circles is what religion is all about. MineralMan Nov 2018 #19

Free will is really a philosophical or scientific issue marylandblue Nov 2018 #20

See, I don't do "faith." So, my use of the term is based on MineralMan Nov 2018 #22

You have to agree on definitions at least for discussion purposes marylandblue Nov 2018 #32

I doubt that is possible. edhopper Nov 2018 #28

Then free will is a meaningless concept marylandblue Nov 2018 #33

Yes and no edhopper Nov 2018 #35

I thought you said no falsifiable definition was possible marylandblue Nov 2018 #40

I think it's a concept worth discussing edhopper Nov 2018 #41

Love has multiple falsifiable definitions marylandblue Nov 2018 #42

I see what you are saying edhopper Nov 2018 #43

love is way easier than free will qazplm135 Nov 2018 #55

We don't need to know the nature of consciousness to have a falsiable definition marylandblue Nov 2018 #57

the two are very much tied together qazplm135 Nov 2018 #59

no, not meaningless qazplm135 Nov 2018 #50

For something to be meaningful, it has to have a definition marylandblue Nov 2018 #53

plenty of things do not have a perfect definition qazplm135 Nov 2018 #54

You have an implicit definition in there marylandblue Nov 2018 #56

I have a fuzzy definition qazplm135 Nov 2018 #58

All you need is to have two types of worlds marylandblue Nov 2018 #60

no, I haven't qazplm135 Nov 2018 #61

I didn't patronize you, I just gave my opinion of what you did marylandblue Nov 2018 #62

I don't "want" to do anything. qazplm135 Nov 2018 #63

I don' t think you have an ulterior anything marylandblue Nov 2018 #64

What you say is based on the key assumption that we have free will. Doodley Nov 2018 #81

based on what? qazplm135 Nov 2018 #85

Good answer, but when you say we are not slaves to our genes and environment, do you Doodley Nov 2018 #79

machines are way more predictable qazplm135 Nov 2018 #84

May I suggest that if you were truly free or even partially capable of free will, you would at least Doodley Nov 2018 #87

How am I not capable of considering it? qazplm135 Nov 2018 #94

Then I have misinterpreted your words, for which I apologize. Doodley Nov 2018 #95

Good questions. I don't have good answers. MineralMan Nov 2018 #18

and then we have to consider edhopper Nov 2018 #23

Both you and I are interested in the neuroscience of decision-making. MineralMan Nov 2018 #21

It's like how much edhopper Nov 2018 #24

Yes. Emotions play a big role in elections, and on both sides. MineralMan Nov 2018 #25

The media plays a big roll in this edhopper Nov 2018 #27

The media is driven by emotions just like everyone else nt marylandblue Nov 2018 #31

That is why edhopper Nov 2018 #36

It's okay if you recognize it for what it is marylandblue Nov 2018 #30

not always edhopper Nov 2018 #37

I don't think either side has a monopoly on facts or truth marylandblue Nov 2018 #38

it's not binary edhopper Nov 2018 #39

They think they are being rational marylandblue Nov 2018 #44

I would agree with you as far as conservative voters edhopper Nov 2018 #45

I always wonder whether people believe the lies they say marylandblue Nov 2018 #47

I doubt McConnell believes edhopper Nov 2018 #48

You believe this, but suppose it was all an illusion. There is no evidence that we have free will. Doodley Nov 2018 #78

No, I don't think it's an illusion at all. MineralMan Nov 2018 #80

Of course it seems that way. You make decisions and you see those decision have an outcome. Doodley Nov 2018 #82

Yours is not a new idea, of course. MineralMan Nov 2018 #83

You appear to be unwilling to even consider you may be wrong. Does that sound like free will? Doodley Nov 2018 #86

Actually, I have considered that many times. I've thought a great deal about MineralMan Nov 2018 #90

I have read many posts of yours in which you (rightly so) expect a higher degree of evidence. Doodley Nov 2018 #91

Oh, there is plenty of evidence that people exercise free will MineralMan Nov 2018 #92

Partial free will qazplm135 Nov 2018 #7

where is this 'Free Will' of which you speak? uriel1972 Nov 2018 #65

You apply an all or nothing to the concept of free qazplm135 Nov 2018 #66

Yes I do... uriel1972 Nov 2018 #67

There are degrees of freedom qazplm135 Nov 2018 #68

Like many ideas... uriel1972 Nov 2018 #69

Why do you hate paragraphs? Act_of_Reparation Nov 2018 #70

like many ideas... qazplm135 Nov 2018 #71

There is evidence for paragraphs. uriel1972 Nov 2018 #73

String theories and many worlds theories Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #74

I like the idea of being "captain of the soul." marylandblue Nov 2018 #13

"We can of course all make moral choices but they are constrained by environmental, societal and ... Jim__ Nov 2018 #26

Nope... uriel1972 Nov 2018 #29

Two distinct concepts zipplewrath Nov 2018 #34

You are right. Mental illness and brain injury can result in changes in behavior - Do those Doodley Nov 2018 #88

Exactly zipplewrath Nov 2018 #96

Your definition of free will would apply to an amoeba. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #46

Some willfully chose not to do so Major Nikon Nov 2018 #75

For the religious, there is no free will. There is only allowed will. keithbvadu2 Nov 2018 #49

There is cause in effect. Every thing that happens wasupaloopa Nov 2018 #51

not at the quantum level qazplm135 Nov 2018 #72

Exactly. Doodley Nov 2018 #89

Maybe (or maybe not) but we do have... C_U_L8R Nov 2018 #52

No, I do not believe we have free will and I don't see any evidence that we do. Doodley Nov 2018 #76

Buddhists say all is cause and effect. If you live in your habits WhiteTara Nov 2018 #93