Religion

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)

200. "Greasy Grace" is one way Christians evade accountability

Sun Jun 3, 2018, 02:16 AM

Jun 2018

Accountability for the many absurd and wrong things they long said and did.

The doctrine that God and Jesus were perfect, was long held, and is still on the books for many.

The doctrine that a pope or even a priest is a sort of stand-in for God and Jesus. even has a Latin phrase to formalize it.

There is something to be said for liberalizing, slipping past, all that. But liberal, greasy Christianity involves some too- slick sophistry and hypocrisy.

For many atheists, it seems more honest and good to 1) openly acknowledge that the old rules were unworkable and even evil. And 2) rather than issuing any more word games to finesse them, we should become frank, adamant critics of it all. And 3) walk away from the whole mess.

Greasepaint can only cover just so many sins.

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Corruption, Duplicitousness, and Lying are Important Christian Values, Apparently. [View all] MineralMan May 2018 OP

It's called Lyin for the Lord... Thomas Hurt May 2018 #1

You know better than that. ollie10 May 2018 #2

Go look at the websites of major Evangelical Christian leaders. MineralMan May 2018 #4

Oh please.... ollie10 May 2018 #6

I said, APPARENTLY, MineralMan May 2018 #8

you also said " I can draw no other conclusion" ollie10 May 2018 #9

Based on what is apparent, from their open claims of Christianity MineralMan May 2018 #10

If it is your debating point that Christianity holds as a core value lying ollie10 May 2018 #13

Consider this: As an atheist, I think it's all a lie MineralMan May 2018 #16

One can certainly see why you do not wish to speak further. guillaumeb May 2018 #19

Another empty, irrelevant insult? MineralMan May 2018 #23

No, not an insult, guillaumeb May 2018 #24

Ugh! MineralMan May 2018 #25

MM, I don't understand what's happening to you, Hortensis May 2018 #31

At least this takes them away from their main internet job, promoting a certain Eliot Rosewater May 2018 #153

You can choose to respond or walk away as you choose ollie10 May 2018 #26

.. MineralMan May 2018 #27

... ollie10 May 2018 #28

Seriously? Major Nikon May 2018 #49

.. ollie10 May 2018 #50

Well... NeoGreen May 2018 #57

No, the OP said ollie10 May 2018 #61

So, what is your opinion... NeoGreen May 2018 #64

If you are going to talk about "hard ons" I think perhaps you are being disrespectful ollie10 May 2018 #67

"You can choose to respond or walk away as you choose"... NeoGreen May 2018 #68

... ollie10 May 2018 #69

... NeoGreen May 2018 #70

I don't know why you are trying to bait me with these posters I have never heard of ollie10 May 2018 #71

... NeoGreen May 2018 #72

There are 2 possibilities here... NeoGreen May 2018 #73

This message was self-deleted by its author ollie10 May 2018 #74

.... ollie10 May 2018 #75

One less sock today in the group Major Nikon May 2018 #80

Yep...and that was a particularly fast... NeoGreen May 2018 #81

Certainly makes one a believer in the resurrection Major Nikon May 2018 #82

Good one (nt) NeoGreen May 2018 #83

That's a "No true Scotsman"-fallacy. Why aren't atheists allowed to use this fallacy??? DetlefK May 2018 #5

If you think a religion makes lying one of the ten commandments ollie10 May 2018 #7

It made killing rebellious kids one of them Major Nikon May 2018 #34

Nice try Major ollie10 May 2018 #36

Nice try ollie Major Nikon May 2018 #39

Again, if you cannot find that a central point of the bible was lying..... ollie10 May 2018 #41

Funny how you didn't answer the question Major Nikon May 2018 #42

the topic that preceeded your post was whether a central message of the bible was lying ollie10 May 2018 #44

I'm discussing exactly that topic Major Nikon May 2018 #47

The bible is a big book ollie10 May 2018 #53

Sure, because the bible is "metaphorical" right? Except when you don't want it to be Major Nikon May 2018 #56

... ollie10 May 2018 #59

I was hoping you'd give me another lesson on how "Honor Thy Mother and Father" isn't one of the 10 Major Nikon May 2018 #60

wow....I didn't say that ollie10 May 2018 #62

You can take this as your daily bible lesson and proof you just violated the 9th Commandment Major Nikon May 2018 #65

.... ollie10 May 2018 #112

If your child cursed you, would you put them to death? Major Nikon May 2018 #33

If you couldn't find where a central point of the Bible was lying and corruption ollie10 May 2018 #35

No less obscure than the ones you found Major Nikon May 2018 #37

The only bible verse I pointed to was the Ten Commandments! ollie10 May 2018 #38

... Major Nikon May 2018 #40

your verse was from leviticus, not the ten commandments ollie10 May 2018 #43

Fail Major Nikon May 2018 #45

leviticus 20:9 ollie10 May 2018 #46

Fail Major Nikon May 2018 #48

... ollie10 May 2018 #51

Ah shucks, I was so looking forward to you explaining how you didn't fail Major Nikon May 2018 #52

.... ollie10 May 2018 #63

... Major Nikon May 2018 #66

He's really cutting to the chase with the no content replies Lordquinton May 2018 #85

I'm OK if they want to claim it's all metaphorical Major Nikon May 2018 #86

I didn't say it was all metaphorical ollie10 May 2018 #113

I didn't say you did Major Nikon May 2018 #115

really? ollie10 May 2018 #118

I also got your condescension Major Nikon May 2018 #119

nobody was talking about the 4th commandment, that was a diversion ollie10 May 2018 #120

So the 9th Commandment wasn't a diversion, but the 4th was? Major Nikon May 2018 #122

... ollie10 May 2018 #123

. Major Nikon May 2018 #125

Others have Lordquinton May 2018 #158

Seems we're back to another trope they love Lordquinton May 2018 #159

Either the commandments are carried over into the NT or they are not. Which is it? Voltaire2 May 2018 #89

I was referring to the ten commandments,leviticus ollie10 May 2018 #92

I read the thread. Voltaire2 May 2018 #94

I am supposed to take bible study from an atheist?!!! ollie10 May 2018 #98

You should at least read the 10 Commandments before you engage in your own bible study lesson Major Nikon May 2018 #102

-- ollie10 May 2018 #106

! Major Nikon May 2018 #107

Please tell us again how "honor thy mother and father" isn't one of the 10 commandments Major Nikon May 2018 #101

I was reponding to a post who referenced leviticus 20:9 ollie10 May 2018 #108

So much for the prohibition on lying, eh? Major Nikon May 2018 #110

Off topic ollie10 May 2018 #111

I was talking about the 10 commandments and you replied to me Major Nikon May 2018 #114

1) Jesus told followers to be sly as snakes. Bretton Garcia May 2018 #54

under certain cirumstances, of course ollie10 May 2018 #58

4) God confused us at Babel Bretton Garcia May 2018 #76

.... ollie10 May 2018 #79

1) God not only allows what appear to be lies to us; Bretton Garcia May 2018 #84

so unlike Kant your god thinks ethics are not universal but are relative? Voltaire2 May 2018 #90

and if I said the reverse, you would attack god also ollie10 May 2018 #91

Ethics is difficult! Voltaire2 May 2018 #95

.. ollie10 May 2018 #99

God is usually presented as unchanging Bretton Garcia May 2018 #96

I didn't say ethics was simple ollie10 May 2018 #100

Where's that photo of the Nazi belt buckle,.. Bretton Garcia May 2018 #116

your dislike of religion is noted ollie10 May 2018 #117

The simplistic forms of religion have often prevailed Bretton Garcia May 2018 #121

And the most simplisic of non-theists have often prevailed...... Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin..... ollie10 May 2018 #124

You can say atheism is the cause of genocide and wars all you want Major Nikon May 2018 #126

didn't say that at all ollie10 May 2018 #133

So I'm supposed to make a deal to prevent you from demonstrating ignorance? Major Nikon May 2018 #136

do you think stalin was a theist? hitler? pol pot? ollie10 May 2018 #138

No, yes, no Major Nikon May 2018 #139

I posted with several links above ollie10 May 2018 #146

None of your links suggested Hitler was an atheist Major Nikon May 2018 #147

I didn't say he was an atheist ollie10 May 2018 #150

So why even mention him along with atheism? Major Nikon May 2018 #155

Why do you limit your count to the last century? Mariana May 2018 #130

you could go back further ollie10 May 2018 #135

Hitler, many sources say, was a Catholic altar boy Bretton Garcia May 2018 #131

hitler was not religious according to the wide consensus of historians ollie10 May 2018 #134

Almost all of Hitlers followers were Christians. Mariana May 2018 #140

hitler used religious people to get into power ollie10 May 2018 #145

That's false too. Christian symbolism and Voltaire2 May 2018 #149

read this, with sources ollie10 May 2018 #152

About 99% of Germans were Christian when Hitler came to power. Mariana May 2018 #156

Christians are embarrassed by Hitler.of course Bretton Garcia May 2018 #141

again, no links ollie10 May 2018 #144

Are the vast majority of historians denying Mariana May 2018 #160

Hitler was an anti-Christian ollie10 May 2018 #161

People like Hitler can't do a damn thing Mariana May 2018 #162

... ollie10 May 2018 #165

The Nazi party was working on removing Voltaire2 May 2018 #164

nobody said he was an atheist ollie10 May 2018 #166

So justin time you are now nobody? Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #169

Non-theist was the word ollie10 Jun 2018 #171

A non-theist believes in how many gods? Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #174

non-theism defined ollie10 Jun 2018 #175

Oh I see. Thanks! Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #179

no, I simply labeled them as non-theists ollie10 Jun 2018 #182

Oh. So basically you want to have it both ways. Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #183

no. I simply posted a definition ollie10 Jun 2018 #185

Nope. Your -definition- changes based on Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #187

... ollie10 Jun 2018 #188

1. You claimed that pol pot, stalin and hitler were non-theists Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #189

Don't you have something better to do ollie10 Jun 2018 #190

Yes well i suppose changing the subject is a good idea Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #191

.... ollie10 Jun 2018 #192

the majority of germans were christians ollie10 May 2018 #163

Someone doesn't get to be a dictator Mariana May 2018 #167

If you don't think hitler was the most responsible ollie10 Jun 2018 #172

Hitler was responsible, but he couldn't have done it alone. Mariana Jun 2018 #176

If you read my post you would know I said plenty of blame to go around ollie10 Jun 2018 #177

you didn't do your homework on Pope Benedict ollie10 May 2018 #137

Speaking. to Germans after the war,few would acknowledge ties with Nazism. Bretton Garcia May 2018 #142

my post had several links ollie10 May 2018 #143

I've substantiated some links in the past. Bretton Garcia May 2018 #157

You said..."and don't forget all those times the Bible told priests that lying is godly..." ollie10 Jun 2018 #178

Suddenly nobody was a Nazi and nobody knew anything Voltaire2 May 2018 #148

Catholics, Christians, were in Denial Bretton Garcia Jun 2018 #170

So the guy who was drafted at a young age ollie10 Jun 2018 #173

The Pope? Not a dedicated Nazi. But not a saint or holy person either. Bretton Garcia Jun 2018 #180

and what was the penalty for desertion in nazi germany? ollie10 Jun 2018 #181

Old enough. How old are you? Bretton Garcia Jun 2018 #184

old enough. ollie10 Jun 2018 #186

You are saying that Jesus would've joined the Nazis Bretton Garcia Jun 2018 #193

I did not say jesus would have joined the nazis ollie10 Jun 2018 #194

Popes copy or represent Jesus, they say. Bretton Garcia Jun 2018 #195

Are you saying you have to be christ to be pope? ollie10 Jun 2018 #196

Where is the nuance in that world view? eom guillaumeb Jun 2018 #197

no room for nuance.... ollie10 Jun 2018 #199

"Greasy Grace" is one way Christians evade accountability Bretton Garcia Jun 2018 #200

well, be an atheist ollie10 Jun 2018 #202

Define "evangelical atheist" please. nt. Mariana Jun 2018 #203

Some one who is an atheist but acts like an evangelical ollie10 Jun 2018 #206

You're misusing the word "evangelical". Mariana Jun 2018 #216

you're right, maybe evangelical is the wrong word ollie10 Jun 2018 #217

Those aren't all exact synonyms marylandblue Jun 2018 #218

I gave a few descriptions ollie10 Jun 2018 #219

Because it seems unclear, at least to me marylandblue Jun 2018 #221

I am sorry if it is unclear for you ollie10 Jun 2018 #222

Don't be arrogant yourself marylandblue Jun 2018 #223

He's criticizing atheist behavior, of course. Mariana Jun 2018 #224

as we see up thread that seems to deprive Ollie of his right to believe stuff. Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #225

I guess that means he can't be a Christian anymore. Mariana Jun 2018 #226

Maybe his ... replies are morse code? Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #227

... Mariana Jun 2018 #229

I am not the only poster on this board to use the ... Even the OP did! ollie10 Jun 2018 #233

no. i made myself clear. didn't say that ollie10 Jun 2018 #232

I don't know why you're getting upset and offended. Mariana Jun 2018 #234

I am a democrat. dissing a religion is contrary to democratic principles ollie10 Jun 2018 #238

Could you clarify that statement please? Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #240

let me be clear ollie10 Jun 2018 #241

So all religions. Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #242

Isis is not a religion, last I checked ollie10 Jun 2018 #243

Isis has religious leaders. Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #245

I will try to spell it out so that even you can understand ollie10 Jun 2018 #246

Didn't answer the question at all. Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #248

why would you want to? ollie10 Jun 2018 #249

Why would I want to disrespect religious beliefs Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #265

so circular logic? ollie10 Jun 2018 #266

Do you think that abhorrent and Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #268

It is only your contemptuous opinion ollie10 Jun 2018 #269

It was a simple question: do you think harmful and abhorrent beliefs Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #271

It depends ollie10 Jun 2018 #273

One more time before I conclude that you Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #275

one more time before I conclude that you are simply being rude ollie10 Jun 2018 #276

And once again you cannot answer the question Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #277

This message was self-deleted by its author ollie10 Jun 2018 #278

nice bit of projection there, friend! ollie10 Jun 2018 #279

There views we all agree are so abhorrent, nobody wants to own them marylandblue Jun 2018 #280

True enough ollie10 Jun 2018 #282

You just conflated respect for rights Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #285

you. just. don't. get. it. ollie10 Jun 2018 #286

Well, you have an answer. Mariana Jun 2018 #252

how much grease did you have to use to twist logic that far? ollie10 Jun 2018 #255

Would you please spell President Obama's name correctly? Mariana Jun 2018 #257

Oh the spelling/typo gestapo is alive and well! ollie10 Jun 2018 #260

Well, you can badmouth Evangelical Christians, I guess. Mariana Jun 2018 #259

crickets ollie10 Jun 2018 #261

Ollie, here is a link to the Democratic Party Platform. Mariana Jun 2018 #250

Don't you agree with Hillary and Barack? ollie10 Jun 2018 #251

I see. When we do it, it's in opposition to Democratic principles. Mariana Jun 2018 #256

nice try ollie10 Jun 2018 #258

The important part is you found a way to feel superior to people who feel superior to people. Act_of_Reparation Jun 2018 #267

As opposed, I guess, to people who are just self-righteous in general marylandblue Jun 2018 #236

there are self righteous people in the evangelical right ollie10 Jun 2018 #239

oh please. I was clear ollie10 Jun 2018 #231

Suit yourself marylandblue Jun 2018 #235

bunk ollie10 Jun 2018 #237

I am not sure why you think it's bunk marylandblue Jun 2018 #244

who here is advocating that your right to believe any goofy nonsense you choose Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #204

Thanks for illustrating ollie10 Jun 2018 #207

as usual a vapid empty irrelevant response. Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #208

... ollie10 Jun 2018 #210

Try defending your statement: religious people have a right to their beliefs too Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #211

... ollie10 Jun 2018 #212

I'll take that as conceding that your point is indefensible. Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #213

.... ollie10 Jun 2018 #214

And a 4 dotter response is: begging for forgiveness Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #215

... ollie10 Jun 2018 #220

You bring up Nazi beliefs ollie10 Jun 2018 #270

So, you'll allow someone to be an atheist, MineralMan Jun 2018 #205

... ollie10 Jun 2018 #209

It's hard to argue with liberal Christians and religious millennials. Bretton Garcia Jun 2018 #247

This message was self-deleted by its author ollie10 Jun 2018 #262

However? I thank you for mentioning these sermons Bretton Garcia Jun 2018 #272

As they say...speak for yourself ollie10 Jun 2018 #274

Presenting other liberal Christian doctrines,.would. be useful, Bretton Garcia Jun 2018 #289

Some lying is prohibited, but slavery, child rape, and killing kids for disobedience isn't Major Nikon May 2018 #103

As if JESUS has anything to do with the VAST VAST VAST majority of christians. Eliot Rosewater May 2018 #151

I don't know about the numbers.... ollie10 May 2018 #154

Thanks for shinning a light Wellstone ruled May 2018 #3

MM saidsimplesimon May 2018 #11

Well, we all follow our own unique path. MineralMan May 2018 #12

You are welcome. saidsimplesimon May 2018 #14

It works for Republicans CaseyinSeattle May 2018 #15

I paused when reading this, guillaumeb May 2018 #17

Still, you managed to squeeze out a content-free, snarky reply MineralMan May 2018 #18

I like to match the reply to the post. guillaumeb May 2018 #20

More irrelevancies... MineralMan May 2018 #21

Ironic. eom guillaumeb May 2018 #22

In that spirit, you are wrong Major Nikon May 2018 #88

We disagree. eom guillaumeb May 2018 #93

You're still wrong. Major Nikon May 2018 #97

Hi MineralMan - Thank you for starting this discussion. Pendrench May 2018 #29

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. MineralMan May 2018 #30

You are very welcome. Pendrench May 2018 #32

When the bible is metaphorical, as some insist, anything can be a Christian value Major Nikon May 2018 #55

I have reached a different coinclusion vlyons May 2018 #77

I think you chose the wrong word Cartoonist May 2018 #78

If God created us in his own image, we have more than reciprocated. Major Nikon May 2018 #87

Either that or there are certainly not many real Christians in America. Seems to me the majority of OregonBlue May 2018 #104

Well, I know a few people who try very hard to live in a way MineralMan May 2018 #105

Agreed. I have met some real Christians in my life and they were absolutely amazing. They are few OregonBlue May 2018 #109

I'm not convinced it was any different back then Major Nikon May 2018 #127

And yet, most of those Christians' faith in Christ is real Mariana May 2018 #132

The bible is perfectly clear Major Nikon May 2018 #168

Just 'cause they're bad christians, doesn't mean they're not christians. Iggo Jun 2018 #198

American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America malchickiwick May 2018 #128

Yes, the goal of the Dominionists should be in all of our minds. MineralMan May 2018 #129

I have always loved your posts.... chillfactor Jun 2018 #201

It's All About White Male Supremacy dlk Jun 2018 #228

You may well have something there. MineralMan Jun 2018 #230

I was told that they can do anything because WhiteTara Jun 2018 #253

Well, as an atheist, I don't believe a word of that. MineralMan Jun 2018 #254

When I pointed that out, the man sort WhiteTara Jun 2018 #263

Yup. They tend to do that. MineralMan Jun 2018 #264

Yet another thread hijacked by irrelevant subthreads MineralMan Jun 2018 #281

They're not entirely useless. Act_of_Reparation Jun 2018 #283

Well, there is that, of course. MineralMan Jun 2018 #284

The sub threads are illustrative of your op's thesis. Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #287

Aha! So they are... MineralMan Jun 2018 #288