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In reply to the discussion: March 25 good news: 84 percent of the world population has faith........ [View all]beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)145. Interesting. I googled your religious "scholar" and it appears I was correct.
Wishful thinking: Karen Armstrong continues her quest to absolve religion from playing any role in violence
In 1095, Pope Urban II asked the knights of France to take on a sacred mission. The Christians of the East had fallen under the dominion of Muslim rulers, as had the holy city of Jerusalem, and it was time to rescue them. It was to be, the pope suggested, "an act of love" where they were to "nobly [lay] down their lives for their Eastern brothers".
The knights left in the spring, brimming with zeal to win back the Holy Land for Christendom. In Germany, they pillaged and murdered the local Jewish population. "Do we need to travel to distant lands in the East to attack the enemies of God," wondered one participant, "when there are Jews right before our eyes, a race that is the greatest enemy of God?" After arriving in Jerusalem in 1099, following years of bloody attacks on the local Muslim population, and a five-week siege of the city, the knights gathered at the tomb of Jesus, singing Easter hymns and thanking God for their success. It was the first Crusade. More would follow.
The religious historian Karen Armstrong has set herself a complex and fraught task with her new book, Fields of Blood: Religion and the History of Violence [Amazon.com; Amazon.co.uk]. Surveying the whole of recorded human history, the former Roman Catholic nun seeks to discover the links between religious belief and violence like the Crusaders. What inspires the faithful to take up arms in the name of God? Is religion, as Armstrong imagines its critics arguing, "responsible for more war, oppression, and suffering than any other human institution"?
***
But Fields of Blood is less history than polemic. Armstrong has a brief to defend religion against the slings and arrows of outrageous secularism and writes from a defensive crouch, intent on downplaying any perception of religion as a fundamental motivating factor in human violence. "Modern society has made a scapegoat of faith," she argues in the books introduction, and the rest of Fields of Blood aims to debunk the notion that religion is exclusively or excessively responsible for the worlds ills.
***
Armstrong makes a habit of downplaying one religiously fuelled atrocity by highlighting another. She regularly analyses cruel behaviour through the lens of the beliefs of the people committing the atrocities. Religious torturers may have meant well, but bloodthirsty savagery often appears in the guise of piety or patriotism or self-defence. Fields of Bloods defence of religion also mostly ignores (with the exception of the Crusades) the long, squalid history of religiously motivated violence and bigotry towards practitioners of other faiths. What is the thousand-year history of anti-Semitism in Europe other than an expression of Christian fear and hatred of Judaism, often emerging in outbursts of horrific violence prompted by wild rumours of Jews killing children or poisoning wells?
Armstrong, writing for a secularised western audience, wants us to clear away our ill-informed beliefs about the corrosive effects of religious faith. Religion is forever intertwined with politics and society, and is rarely responsible for the crimes attributed to its influence. But merely to state that religions violent impulses are often linked to nationalist ideology, or that those who commit crimes in religions name are often ignorant about its tenets, is not enough.
Religion, as Armstrong argues in the books afterword, "does lots of different things". The Hindu rioters who tore down the Babri mosque may have been as ill-informed about the precepts of their religion as the crusading medieval knights, but to simply excuse them from the charmed circle of the religious elect is insufficient. Dismissing an entire religion because of the horrific acts of some of its practitioners is intellectually lazy; but dismissing those practitioners from their faiths because of the conclusions they reached about what belief meant is intellectually dishonest.
http://m.thenational.ae/arts-lifestyle/the-review/wishful-thinking-karen-armstrong-continues-her-quest-to-absolve-religion-from-playing-any-role-in-violence
In 1095, Pope Urban II asked the knights of France to take on a sacred mission. The Christians of the East had fallen under the dominion of Muslim rulers, as had the holy city of Jerusalem, and it was time to rescue them. It was to be, the pope suggested, "an act of love" where they were to "nobly [lay] down their lives for their Eastern brothers".
The knights left in the spring, brimming with zeal to win back the Holy Land for Christendom. In Germany, they pillaged and murdered the local Jewish population. "Do we need to travel to distant lands in the East to attack the enemies of God," wondered one participant, "when there are Jews right before our eyes, a race that is the greatest enemy of God?" After arriving in Jerusalem in 1099, following years of bloody attacks on the local Muslim population, and a five-week siege of the city, the knights gathered at the tomb of Jesus, singing Easter hymns and thanking God for their success. It was the first Crusade. More would follow.
The religious historian Karen Armstrong has set herself a complex and fraught task with her new book, Fields of Blood: Religion and the History of Violence [Amazon.com; Amazon.co.uk]. Surveying the whole of recorded human history, the former Roman Catholic nun seeks to discover the links between religious belief and violence like the Crusaders. What inspires the faithful to take up arms in the name of God? Is religion, as Armstrong imagines its critics arguing, "responsible for more war, oppression, and suffering than any other human institution"?
***
But Fields of Blood is less history than polemic. Armstrong has a brief to defend religion against the slings and arrows of outrageous secularism and writes from a defensive crouch, intent on downplaying any perception of religion as a fundamental motivating factor in human violence. "Modern society has made a scapegoat of faith," she argues in the books introduction, and the rest of Fields of Blood aims to debunk the notion that religion is exclusively or excessively responsible for the worlds ills.
***
Armstrong makes a habit of downplaying one religiously fuelled atrocity by highlighting another. She regularly analyses cruel behaviour through the lens of the beliefs of the people committing the atrocities. Religious torturers may have meant well, but bloodthirsty savagery often appears in the guise of piety or patriotism or self-defence. Fields of Bloods defence of religion also mostly ignores (with the exception of the Crusades) the long, squalid history of religiously motivated violence and bigotry towards practitioners of other faiths. What is the thousand-year history of anti-Semitism in Europe other than an expression of Christian fear and hatred of Judaism, often emerging in outbursts of horrific violence prompted by wild rumours of Jews killing children or poisoning wells?
Armstrong, writing for a secularised western audience, wants us to clear away our ill-informed beliefs about the corrosive effects of religious faith. Religion is forever intertwined with politics and society, and is rarely responsible for the crimes attributed to its influence. But merely to state that religions violent impulses are often linked to nationalist ideology, or that those who commit crimes in religions name are often ignorant about its tenets, is not enough.
Religion, as Armstrong argues in the books afterword, "does lots of different things". The Hindu rioters who tore down the Babri mosque may have been as ill-informed about the precepts of their religion as the crusading medieval knights, but to simply excuse them from the charmed circle of the religious elect is insufficient. Dismissing an entire religion because of the horrific acts of some of its practitioners is intellectually lazy; but dismissing those practitioners from their faiths because of the conclusions they reached about what belief meant is intellectually dishonest.
http://m.thenational.ae/arts-lifestyle/the-review/wishful-thinking-karen-armstrong-continues-her-quest-to-absolve-religion-from-playing-any-role-in-violence
See I've seen this kind of 'reasoning' before and it's always the same.
Who am I supposed to believe: religious people who commit atrocities and claim it's because of their religious beliefs or a few revisionists who tell us to ignore the words of those believers and thousands of years of evidence?
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March 25 good news: 84 percent of the world population has faith........ [View all]
guillaumeb
Mar 2017
OP
Oh I think we can do better. For instance wasn't the first slave ship named after Jesus?
beam me up scottie
Mar 2017
#8
I thought about that too but for eight years we made it clear we weren't in a holy war with Islam.
beam me up scottie
Mar 2017
#16
Except religious abolitionists went against their own holy book when they opposed slavery.
beam me up scottie
Mar 2017
#18
If that was such an important concept why did so many Christians support slavery?
beam me up scottie
Mar 2017
#57
Yes - but again said atheists aren't citing a holy book to support those positions.
beam me up scottie
Mar 2017
#61
Really? Quoting the bible is "attacking faith" and stating facts is "stereotyping" people?
beam me up scottie
Mar 2017
#111
Most Christians do not take everything in the Bible literally or apply ancient laws to modern life..
HopeAgain
Mar 2017
#113
Again - not a straw man since you suggested there were different interpretations.
beam me up scottie
Mar 2017
#144
Interesting. I googled your religious "scholar" and it appears I was correct.
beam me up scottie
Mar 2017
#145
This isn't about belief, it's about facts and history -apologists distort both to pimp their agenda.
beam me up scottie
Mar 2017
#152
The point is that people justify what they do by saying that they are following a code of behavior.
guillaumeb
Mar 2017
#26
That's a fairly audacious deployment of snark given how egregiously wrong you are.
Act_of_Reparation
Mar 2017
#99
Straw man. Please show me where I discussed and/or determined their motivation.
beam me up scottie
Mar 2017
#47
False equivalency. There is no holy book instructing atheists to enslave, torture and murder people.
beam me up scottie
Mar 2017
#59
And I focus on religion's victims because they're often ignored when people discuss the good news.
beam me up scottie
Mar 2017
#64
In my reading, "hell" is short for "sheol." Which stood for the underground.
Bretton Garcia
Apr 2017
#164
Good news? Religion has been the cause of murder, torture, wars, oppression
The Velveteen Ocelot
Mar 2017
#51
There is oppression being committed by the nominally atheistic rulers in Russia.
guillaumeb
Mar 2017
#68
False equivalency. They may BE atheists but they don't do it in the name of atheism.
AtheistCrusader
Mar 2017
#71
Well, I'm not a mind reader, but I see no reason to think, for the additional reasons I outlined,
AtheistCrusader
Mar 2017
#92
You should keep up - Putin and the ROC are responsible for oppressing lgbt people in Russia.
beam me up scottie
Mar 2017
#115
It's proof that religious leaders are responsible for anti-lgbt discrimination in Russia.
beam me up scottie
Mar 2017
#126
Does the Pope go to interfaith services claiming to be a devout Jew or Muslim?
Act_of_Reparation
Mar 2017
#130
No they're proof that both men pray and accept communion just like other theists.
beam me up scottie
Mar 2017
#131