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daredtowork

(3,732 posts)

254. There's Probably at Least a Dozen Mutually Incompatible Ideologies Going on Here

Sat Dec 6, 2014, 07:18 PM

Dec 2014

I don't really understand your false dichotomy, but let me give some of my own observations a go:

Third Way vs. Left Wing Progressive vs. Far Left Wing (Socialist or Libertarian or Anarchist "flavored" Democrats).

Hillary supporters vs. Elizabeth Warren/Bernie Sanders vs. Other Possibilities (Jim Webb, for example).

Edward Snowden/Glenn Greenwald supporters vs. Edward Snowden is a criminal.

Support Obama no matter what vs. it's time to start criticizing the President

Intervene in Humanitarian Crises across the globe vs. reduce our military involvement

Do something about misogyny vs. men who think feminism is about taking away their rights

Do something about homophobia vs. people who think "identity politics" is losing the Southern white male "populist" vote

People for the prioritization of immigrant issues vs. people who feel union issues were shafted in the process, and again - no appeal to the Soouthern white male "populist" vote

Black Lives Matter vs. All Lives Matter

I could go on and on and on. There are many genuine ideological splits WITHIN the Democratic party, and a Democratic forum is the place to debate them. If someone decides to throw a hissy fit and leave because they have taken a hard line and their ideology isn't prevailing, then that is their problem.

By the way, I've been Jury'd twice over ideology policing: once in regard to my feminism and another in regard to my partisanship over Edward Snowden. Both times I was disgusted that people used the Jury system that way, and as a Juror I've always been careful to let opinion, whether I agreed with it or not, go. A forum is a place for debate, and if Democrats automatically agreed on everything they wouldn't need a forum.

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The issues with DU participation IMHO, are a conflict between two thoughts on how to advance Liberal [View all] stevenleser Dec 2014 OP

Let me see if I understand that el_bryanto Dec 2014 #1

No, I meant exactly what I wrote, not your strawman version. nt stevenleser Dec 2014 #2

Do you think that people who support Sanders or Warren should leave DU? nt el_bryanto Dec 2014 #7

I support Sanders and Warren. So, no. nt stevenleser Dec 2014 #8

So who should leave DU? el_bryanto Dec 2014 #11

As framed, your question gives an incorrect perception. Many have already left or stopped stevenleser Dec 2014 #17

I don't agree that it is in decline el_bryanto Dec 2014 #20

No, it is in decline since August, assuming one believes the Alexa stats as posted in another OP stevenleser Dec 2014 #26

This message was self-deleted by its author VanillaRhapsody Dec 2014 #28

Are you voting for whomever wins the nomination in the Democratic Primary Election? VanillaRhapsody Dec 2014 #30

So if Lieberman is nominated as the Dem. Candidate are you voting for him? bahrbearian Dec 2014 #56

Yes I would. Sorry but having a Republican is worse yeoman6987 Dec 2014 #57

Lieberman is a Republican AgingAmerican Dec 2014 #166

Bwwwwwwwwwaaa ha aha hahahahaha lonestarnot Dec 2014 #226

If he wins....yes. VanillaRhapsody Dec 2014 #61

Lieberman would not be nominated. He was "tolerated" because he was needed--not celebrated. MADem Dec 2014 #119

You've asked this so many 840high Dec 2014 #103

its hard to drill it into some people's heads..... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2014 #106

Maybe try something other than a drill. pangaia Dec 2014 #229

maybe thats what it takes for some.... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2014 #238

Nobody responds to a drill. pangaia Dec 2014 #240

some need to learn to.... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2014 #244

Um, no, they don't. Have you been put in charge of the Pledge Drive? Or anything? n/t djean111 Dec 2014 #251

I think I just found one.... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2014 #252

OH! You you're the one to teach them, eh! pangaia Dec 2014 #255

whatevs.... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2014 #256

It is the 'peel away the layers of the onion' version AgingAmerican Dec 2014 #165

More or less, poorly disguised as an objective analysis of DU. marmar Dec 2014 #4

No, that strawman is not "more or less" what I wrote. nt stevenleser Dec 2014 #6

YOUR problem is . . . Major Hogwash Dec 2014 #258

Bryant, let me try to tighten up your analysis... brooklynite Dec 2014 #15

Even if the most electable person moves us further to the right? el_bryanto Dec 2014 #18

I don't think EITHER group should be banned... brooklynite Dec 2014 #24

are they voting for whomever wins the Democratic Primary Election? VanillaRhapsody Dec 2014 #32

The point to this is to force us to support the most electable candidate el_bryanto Dec 2014 #43

because you are a gambler naturally! VanillaRhapsody Dec 2014 #109

I'm not a gambler I want to support someone who isn't in bed with Wall Street. el_bryanto Dec 2014 #137

But it's better to win a "moral victory" ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #72

That would be a valid point if our sensible centrists LondonReign2 Dec 2014 #147

And those that choose to ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #152

This has been pointed out to you a hundred times LondonReign2 Dec 2014 #163

And it has been pointed out to you a hundred times ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #171

How many times are you gong to repeat this lie? LondonReign2 Dec 2014 #172

I have as much data to back up my ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #175

If you have data to contradict mine LondonReign2 Dec 2014 #177

Do you have empirical evidence regarding 2014? ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #182

As it turns out, I DO have some 2014 data LondonReign2 Dec 2014 #187

Yeah ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #190

"Same data problem as before" LondonReign2 Dec 2014 #192

... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #195

... LondonReign2 Dec 2014 #198

See Post 200. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #201

See post 202 LondonReign2 Dec 2014 #206

Argumentum ab auctoritate? ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #214

Yes, you sadly attempted to argue from authority LondonReign2 Dec 2014 #225

No, first ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #231

LMAO. You actually thought Logic was taught in English class LondonReign2 Dec 2014 #296

No ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #297

Maybe you want to go back to posing as a statistics expert? LondonReign2 Dec 2014 #299

Have a happy life. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #300

"86 percent support from liberals" OrwellwasRight Dec 2014 #266

True. maybe. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #291

LOL, I missed this one LondonReign2 Dec 2014 #180

No ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #186

Oh goodness. Intentionally ignoring and misinterpreting data LondonReign2 Dec 2014 #189

Yes, I did; but ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #193

Yes, I get it. LondonReign2 Dec 2014 #196

I don't like to make/accept ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #200

I understand LondonReign2 Dec 2014 #202

No ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #204

You mean all five data sets LondonReign2 Dec 2014 #208

By the way LondonReign2 Dec 2014 #173

The ones that LOST in the Democratic Primaries. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #176

Which, if true LondonReign2 Dec 2014 #178

Could you narrow the field any more? ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #184

So narrowing the field is asking for ANY Democratic candidate LondonReign2 Dec 2014 #188

You forgot to address this ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #191

Al Franken LondonReign2 Dec 2014 #194

My bad. You are correct ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #197

On those states LondonReign2 Dec 2014 #212

Obviously, Pub Lite didn't do well in 2010 or 2012. Yet, we are going to continue the meme merrily Dec 2014 #220

It's a rare "moral victory" that is delivered in the form of an electoral defeat. n/t lumberjack_jeff Dec 2014 #205

Not according to ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #211

Nope. Unless you're just elucidating on the OP strawman version of group 2. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Dec 2014 #80

^^^ that onecaliberal Dec 2014 #107

+1000 OrwellwasRight Dec 2014 #267

Hear Hear! dirtydickcheney Dec 2014 #59

Pretty Accurate. Katashi_itto Dec 2014 #130

I jesus. That is NOT what SL said at all. pangaia Dec 2014 #227

Wow.. darkangel218 Dec 2014 #3

No. I did not say "criticising". I said "relentlessly pillorying". Big difference. nt stevenleser Dec 2014 #5

Define that for me please. darkangel218 Dec 2014 #10

Sure, criticism= I don't like the comment you made to this OP. Relentless pillorying=, I go to stevenleser Dec 2014 #19

Okay thanks. But who here does that? darkangel218 Dec 2014 #27

Serious???? VanillaRhapsody Dec 2014 #38

I asked Steven. darkangel218 Dec 2014 #40

and I answered....because I was awed! VanillaRhapsody Dec 2014 #45

Keep it up, whats new. darkangel218 Dec 2014 #48

and? VanillaRhapsody Dec 2014 #54

Not that you asked me; but ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #74

I guess you haven't been paying attention. LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #94

Pleae allow this edit for more accuracy ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #70

Excellent.....they apparently do not do nuance.... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2014 #33

They? darkangel218 Dec 2014 #39

I was speaking to HIM about you.... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2014 #41

Yet you replied to me to a question posted to Steven. darkangel218 Dec 2014 #47

apparently not... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2014 #52

I think some folks here spend much of their time preaching about how slow all change must be Bluenorthwest Dec 2014 #44

I'm about to run out for a few hours, but there is a big difference IMO between stevenleser Dec 2014 #58

But this here present moment is not a general election, it's a pre primary holiday period. Bluenorthwest Dec 2014 #88

It can only be as swift as the process allows for treestar Dec 2014 #75

First time I saw the police shoot an unarmed person was in the late 80's. How slow does this process Bluenorthwest Dec 2014 #89

You expect an end to all crime? treestar Dec 2014 #145

Again with the ridiculous response. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Dec 2014 #158

Well it sounded to me like treestar Dec 2014 #169

What do we want? OrwellwasRight Dec 2014 #268

Seems that you want an echo chamber, not a discussion board. marmar Dec 2014 #9

No, I would not support an echo chamber. nt stevenleser Dec 2014 #12

posted to for later. 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #13

Your descriptions read like push poll questions cyberswede Dec 2014 #14

It's my opinion and perception. I stand by it. nt stevenleser Dec 2014 #21

I just think your argument would seem more vaild if your two descriptions were more objective cyberswede Dec 2014 #37

exactly G_j Dec 2014 #294

DU has been divided into two or more coflicting groups CJCRANE Dec 2014 #16

All true. The difference is that since August participation is crashing. stevenleser Dec 2014 #23

Maybe it is crashing because so much of what is discussed upaloopa Dec 2014 #46

I think those things also contribute and the jury system's inability to deal with attacks in stevenleser Dec 2014 #49

And so your answer to declining numbers Generic Other Dec 2014 #114

No. nt stevenleser Dec 2014 #162

Perhaps, but what about the folks here that openly support Rand Paul FSogol Dec 2014 #22

OR outright say they WILL NOT vote for the winner of the Democratic Primary Election....if THEY VanillaRhapsody Dec 2014 #36

Lol it's almost as if people think Union Scribe Dec 2014 #78

Bingo. Thanks. 840high Dec 2014 #104

+1 OrwellwasRight Dec 2014 #269

+1 n/t lumberjack_jeff Dec 2014 #207

#StandWithRand!!... SidDithers Dec 2014 #50

Alert on them, IF you see one. MIRT or the admins will take them out. Autumn Dec 2014 #73

Hello m'dear! Puglover Dec 2014 #91

I always get so happy when I click on replies to me and see your name. Autumn Dec 2014 #92

Yeah after an unforgivable amount of Puglover Dec 2014 #93

A rand supporter would't last five minutes and would be gone Autumn Dec 2014 #96

I nailed the turkey at my sister in laws. Puglover Dec 2014 #98

I keep seeing the "Rand Paul supporters on DU" meme but never actually neverforget Dec 2014 #101

There are no Paul supporters here on DU. A handful want there to be some Autumn Dec 2014 #113

Someone got alerted on for a sig line mentioning someone whose merrily Dec 2014 #213

Rules to try and live by ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #126

I think the one that farted neverforget Dec 2014 #127

Ah ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #140

MIRT can't take 'em out if they have thousands of posts. MADem Dec 2014 #122

The admins will and have taken out Paul supporters. Autumn Dec 2014 #123

You don't need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows with some posters, though. MADem Dec 2014 #125

My advice to you as a former mirt member is to pm skinner with some examples of this behavior. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #185

I think you are correct. What bugs me is NOT the difference of opinion, it's the name calling. MADem Dec 2014 #25

I name the split Pragmatist/Ideologue. Both actually help each other. Neither is an insulting term. KittyWampus Dec 2014 #29

When people fling poo for disagreeing, I don't see any help happening. MADem Dec 2014 #51

"Poor baby didn't get their pony", "Firebagger", "Leftbagger", accusations of being Libertarians, TheKentuckian Dec 2014 #97

"Whiney hypocrites love dishing it out...." MADem Dec 2014 #115

I wasn't the one whining. You folks are massive hypocrites and started the snark early and often. TheKentuckian Dec 2014 #129

I was going to hand you a shovel to make your work easier, so long as you keep digging a hole, MADem Dec 2014 #135

and you for demonstrating mine. Have a goodun! TheKentuckian Dec 2014 #141

Sorry--your point just is not made with that comment. MADem Dec 2014 #159

It isn't surprising you might find a path to seeing it that way. TheKentuckian Dec 2014 #232

Logic does have a way of prevailing. nt MADem Dec 2014 #236

As does clinging to privileged perspective fallacies and intellectual dishonesty. TheKentuckian Dec 2014 #282

You should take your own advice, there. And maybe try for civility when you converse, too. MADem Dec 2014 #286

You mean like when people Erich Bloodaxe BSN Dec 2014 #84

Name calling isn't nice, but you really equate "purist"--which can apply just as well to a MADem Dec 2014 #116

I equate it with the the pearl-clutching over being called a 'centrist' or 'Third Way' or 'New Dem'. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Dec 2014 #139

I'm sorry, but your argument just doesn't pass the smell test. Or the reality check. MADem Dec 2014 #161

Right on cue. woo me with science Dec 2014 #90

In essence, then, anyone who does not agree with YOU is "Third Way" and should be "disregarded." MADem Dec 2014 #117

"shutting down anyone who doesn't follow a specific POV." woo me with science Dec 2014 #150

I don't object to your POV--I object to your LANGUAGE, your rudeness, your incivility and MADem Dec 2014 #157

Excellent post. Andy823 Dec 2014 #183

I cannot recall seeing a single poster here called Turd Way. Segments of the party, yes, but merrily Dec 2014 #215

Thanks for your post, well said. Thinkingabout Dec 2014 #108

Well said and i think you struck a nerve. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #199

Yeah, and the other side OrwellwasRight Dec 2014 #271

Oh, so your argument is "Someone was mean to me, so I'm-a gonna get BACK at 'em?" MADem Dec 2014 #276

You're the one who brought up Kucinich OrwellwasRight Dec 2014 #279

You're not seriously INSISTING he had a chance, polling at under a percent? MADem Dec 2014 #285

You are the name caller. OrwellwasRight Dec 2014 #289

I didn't call progressiveS "pie-in-the-sky." But interesting that you would fake a frame to MADem Dec 2014 #290

Purge season already? nt Union Scribe Dec 2014 #31

I take your overall point and agree, but it's far from seasonal. merrily Dec 2014 #218

In fairness, you're misrepresenting the "penguin" argument. Recursion Dec 2014 #34

+1 ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #77

Something like that, but not really. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Dec 2014 #86

^This^ LondonReign2 Dec 2014 #148

Exactly. OrwellwasRight Dec 2014 #273

No not quite. upaloopa Dec 2014 #35

No, those are Third Way talking points. woo me with science Dec 2014 #42

^^^THIS^^^ 99Forever Dec 2014 #62

^^^THIS^^^ L0oniX Dec 2014 #85

^^^THIS^^^ PowerToThePeople Dec 2014 #112

Leave the Third way alone! Your making them sad! Jesus Malverde Dec 2014 #128

Seems corporatists don't like that fact being pointed out LondonReign2 Dec 2014 #149

Thank you for posting this. woo me with science Dec 2014 #153

Someone actually alerted on "Third Way talking points?" merrily Dec 2014 #217

+1 Marr Dec 2014 #132

Truth. polichick Dec 2014 #209

We don't need the compromised candidates Man from Pickens Dec 2014 #53

DU rec... SidDithers Dec 2014 #55

Incrementalism doesn't work for me. I've mmonk Dec 2014 #60

It's not even incrementalism. woo me with science Dec 2014 #64

Agreed. I used incrementalism because that mmonk Dec 2014 #65

+1 Gotcha. woo me with science Dec 2014 #66

Yup! OrwellwasRight Dec 2014 #284

This message was self-deleted by its author LittleBlue Dec 2014 #63

You answered your own question LittleBlue Dec 2014 #67

I think your error is you are defining it only in terms of candidates. jeff47 Dec 2014 #68

Elections of candidates are the most clear, direct & immediate way to affect the Democratic process stevenleser Dec 2014 #69

Again, candidates are tools. Policies are what we are trying to implement. jeff47 Dec 2014 #87

I can agree with you for the most part tabbycat31 Dec 2014 #71

that's why we use the term "purist" treestar Dec 2014 #76

Bull. Union Scribe Dec 2014 #79

Is that the only issue? treestar Dec 2014 #144

Of course not. Just one example among many. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Dec 2014 #155

You said we don't support the same things treestar Dec 2014 #168

NSA, drone warfare, education deform, Union Scribe Dec 2014 #160

on many things this President is unwilling, unable, or both Man from Pickens Dec 2014 #151

You're actually claiming Obama has an antagonistic style? treestar Dec 2014 #170

Oh yeah Man from Pickens Dec 2014 #210

I think the divide is more between trolls and non-trolls Bjorn Against Dec 2014 #81

It is the responsibility of the people in a democracy to hold public servants accountable. Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2014 #82

Get rid of GD Blue_Adept Dec 2014 #83

GD is my favorite forum Oilwellian Dec 2014 #95

The problem is that Obama sucks. Vattel Dec 2014 #99

Steven, we don't believe just that progress is too slow and incremental but that it is mostly in the TheKentuckian Dec 2014 #100

^^^this^^^!!!1!! truebluegreen Dec 2014 #102

Thank you. Third Way talking points about wanting the same liberal outcome are absurd. woo me with science Dec 2014 #105

Yeah and I think that ridiculous claim is why I believe a lot of these folks are malicious TheKentuckian Dec 2014 #133

My favorite post to date!! Thanks TK! RiverLover Dec 2014 #124

We have to convince enough Republicans to change their minds treestar Dec 2014 #164

No, we have to change the supposed Democrats who can't wait to press the Republican agenda. TheKentuckian Dec 2014 #233

" Undo the progress of the past 25 or 30 years" Caretha Dec 2014 #234

Yeah, you gotta puff, puff, pass. Otherwise, at some point the brain is deprived of oxygen. TheKentuckian Dec 2014 #235

lol Reading these responses, most of which have absolutely nothing to do with what you wrote, Number23 Dec 2014 #110

+1 nt MADem Dec 2014 #118

Notice how folks are saying Steve is calling for a purge (when he isn't) and calling everyone Third Number23 Dec 2014 #120

Point and point. Precisely. MADem Dec 2014 #121

I think I am seeing less than half the responses. I'm not seeing purge posts stevenleser Dec 2014 #138

It's poor design. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Dec 2014 #156

I don't use ignore so I see everything. Including the folks jumping like kangaroos around in your Number23 Dec 2014 #221

unrec PowerToThePeople Dec 2014 #111

DU's traffic is down because the fight you describe is too 'inside politics'. Marr Dec 2014 #131

For me, Hillary has disqualified herself by her disruptive behavior. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #134

So you say Hillary is impeding democracy, let me see if you think these are true. Thinkingabout Dec 2014 #222

K & R pnwmom Dec 2014 #136

The problem isn't that the two groups exist. Captain Stern Dec 2014 #142

This website will still be profitable for Skinner, EarlG, and Elad TransitJohn Dec 2014 #143

It is a shame really that good people leave this site and don't come back. Rex Dec 2014 #146

I don't agree with your framing AT ALL. nt merrily Dec 2014 #154

It certainly not easy being a Hillary Clinton supporter on DU. n/t hrmjustin Dec 2014 #167

I am also getting sick and tired of seeing Hillary supporters being called third way. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #174

And it's not even a particularly Bobbie Jo Dec 2014 #179

Yeah it is ridiculous. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #181

I actually put "third-way" in my DU keyword trash, Jamaal510 Dec 2014 #288

You understand that the Clintons don't think third way is an insult, they invented it. Exultant Democracy Dec 2014 #245

I will Support her but I am not third way and don't appreciate when they call me that. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #246

You are what you vote for. If you support trangulation you are third way Exultant Democracy Dec 2014 #247

I am not DLC and I don't appreciate you calling me that. you know nothing about me. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #248

You support Clinton the First Lady of the DLC, that is all I need to know Exultant Democracy Dec 2014 #249

65 percent of Democrats polled said they would vote for her in a primary in a poll I seen recently. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #250

Duh of course they are, the DLC has a stranglehold on our party. Exultant Democracy Dec 2014 #259

Democrats like me? hrmjustin Dec 2014 #260

Ds like you support HRC, what is hard to understand about that? Exultant Democracy Dec 2014 #261

You do understand we are not all dlc? hrmjustin Dec 2014 #262

It's like you're eating a ham burger and claiming to be vegan. Exultant Democracy Dec 2014 #263

I am a very good Democratic Party member. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #264

What should I call someone who supports third way DLC democrats like HRC? Exultant Democracy Dec 2014 #265

I think it is time for me to take another break from this site again. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #270

I'm sure you'll be back soon, maybe then you can answer my question. Exultant Democracy Dec 2014 #275

I think that's true, albeit an oversimplification. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2014 #203

What do you suggest the "loathe" DU admins do about it? WorseBeforeBetter Dec 2014 #216

DU has always been this way, but I want to address all the third way nonsense BootinUp Dec 2014 #219

Nice job on the biased framing BlindTiresias Dec 2014 #223

We shouldn't criticize the president because...he's part African American? Are you kidding me? Zorra Dec 2014 #224

+1 Nice post. RiverLover Dec 2014 #228

None of your response addresses anything I actually wrote. nt stevenleser Dec 2014 #293

The middle class has not done well under this president and the AA community has done even worse. CentralMass Dec 2014 #230

How has the right wing become so powerful? LWolf Dec 2014 #237

So many incorrect unstated assumptions OrwellwasRight Dec 2014 #239

Way to cut through the sophistry. woo me with science Dec 2014 #272

Thank you. OrwellwasRight Dec 2014 #274

excellent analysis of this seriously IGNORANT post. m-lekktor Dec 2014 #278

Thanks! OrwellwasRight Dec 2014 #281

The radical right has kicked ass since Dean was fired, the worst happened Exultant Democracy Dec 2014 #241

Howard Dean speaks for me XemaSab Dec 2014 #242

True. OrwellwasRight Dec 2014 #277

are you aware that there are progressives on this forum? ellenrr Dec 2014 #243

Ain't it the truth. There may be a half dozen AA's who post here anymore. The hate is palpable. Tarheel_Dem Dec 2014 #253

Your kidding me, I'm one of 6 black people left here, you could have fooled me. Exultant Democracy Dec 2014 #283

There's Probably at Least a Dozen Mutually Incompatible Ideologies Going on Here daredtowork Dec 2014 #254

Practicing my 2015 New Year's mantra: "No Clinton. No Bush. No More." Kip Humphrey Dec 2014 #257

The conflict is based on this problem... Scootaloo Dec 2014 #280

Plus the fact that we could nominate the mummified senile corpse of St. Ronnie XemaSab Dec 2014 #287

And here we have another excellent example of what I talk about in my OP stevenleser Dec 2014 #292

Actually that shows the fallacy of your argument G_j Dec 2014 #295

Correction Bobbie Jo Dec 2014 #298