Krugman: The Great Degrader

[stupidicus]

38. and exactly when was it the lies regarding Tonkin were exposed

and all doubt removed (or what shoulda been anyway) for the public?

One can certainly argue for media complicity in both cases, Tonkin & Iraq, but there's a vast difference between having those lies exposed in a widespread and timely manner as was the case for Bush, and it being excused by his supporters during that time frame and beyond, and LBJ's supporters never having that opportunity at the time.

Do you think liberals/dems would have given LBJ the unqualified support for the war Bush recieved and continues to recieve from many had they known at the time they were being lied to?

Although information obtained well after the fact supported Captain Herrick's statements about the inaccuracy of the later torpedo reports as well as the 1981 Herrick/Scheer conclusion about the inaccuracy of the first, indicating that there was no North Vietnamese attack that night, at the time U.S. authorities and all of the Maddox crew stated that they were convinced that an attack had taken place. As a result, planes from the carriers Ticonderoga and Constellation were sent to hit North Vietnamese torpedo boat bases and fuel facilities during Operation Pierce Arrow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident#Distortion_of_the_event

That's what Krugman is referring to imo, not that Bush started the lying. The truth poses an existential threat to modern rightwingnuttery, and increasingly so, and they've relied on lying, denials, etc far in excess starting with the Bush admin than ever before. Their pols and pundits have a license to lie freely now, and without any fear of financial or political reprisal from their minions, who share their shame over Iraq and a great deal else.

I can't help but recall a couple of polls I did on a large board during that time, asking at two different points if he should be impeached and prosecuted if it is inevitably shown he lied us into war and was behind any torture. Almost to a man/woman, the rightwingnuts said yes.

Then what happened? I don't have to answer that, do I? Bush and crew made lying the rule, not the exception, and established that they could do it with impunity -- something LBJ, etc, would have never considered doing for the obvious reason.

That's what Krugman is talking about, and what I saw coming at the time. ANd it's only gotten worse, no, in a "Oh whatta tangled web we weave..." kinda way? ANd he's right, the deleterious effects of this are incalculable, or at the very least, would be very numerous if one wanted to study/list them. You could start with AGW, or maybe even the more recent debunking of their "austerity" BS which they'll continue to lie about and defend, much as they have Bush's legacy.