General Discussion

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)

154. How about "all men benefit from rape"?

Reply to arely staircase (Original post)

Wed Apr 3, 2013, 11:15 PM

Apr 2013

I get the impression that there are some here who enjoy bashing men. Or who enjoy shit-stirring, and bash men to achieve this end.

As an example, there was a thread a couple of months ago that discussed the fear of rape that all women have. As a father of daughters and as a husband I completely sympathize with this issue and posted accordingly. The makings of a productive thread. But then of course someone went over the top and posted that "all men benefit from rape". An offensive and ridiculous statement, especially to someone who worries about his wife and daughters. Many other DUers objected to this statement but plenty of DUers doubled down on it and the thread was pretty much derailed. Almost as though certain DUers did not like the idea of an anti-rape thread where male and female DUers were generally in agreement, and were determined to stir the shit.

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2154087

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"all men are potential rapists" [View all] arely staircase Apr 2013 OP

And all men Summer Hathaway Apr 2013 #1

I couldn't agree more, Summer. pacalo Apr 2013 #3

Nice one, Summer. protect our future Apr 2013 #9

no they aren't - some men are sociopaths who will never be any of those things. arely staircase Apr 2013 #22

I think we're speaking at cross purposes Summer Hathaway Apr 2013 #29

let me put it this way arely staircase Apr 2013 #31

You seem to be confused Summer Hathaway Apr 2013 #39

I edited my post while you were responding arely staircase Apr 2013 #41

My apologies ... Summer Hathaway Apr 2013 #52

I disagree. MrSlayer Apr 2013 #153

Hitler had a dog, Blondi, he really loved. nt raccoon Apr 2013 #287

Thanks Summer :) whatchamacallit Apr 2013 #139

+++1 patrice Apr 2013 #180

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #229

In the context of the OP and what is being discussed here Summer Hathaway Apr 2013 #238

Like 'all gun-owners are potential criminals.' All the time on D.U. Eleanors38 Apr 2013 #281

Of course they are -- CokeMachine Apr 2013 #292

A healthy way to see things, summer! nt. polly7 Apr 2013 #290

my best friend's mom datasuspect Apr 2013 #306

Again mercuryblues Apr 2013 #325

Where did the OP, Summer Hathaway Apr 2013 #326

I guess these words mercuryblues Apr 2013 #328

The OP pointed out Summer Hathaway Apr 2013 #329

The OP claimed that anyone believing that any man could be a rapist lacked intelligence, KitSileya Apr 2013 #330

"The OP claimed that anyone believing that any man could be a rapist lacked intelligence." Summer Hathaway Apr 2013 #332

sure mercuryblues Apr 2013 #331

At this point, Summer Hathaway Apr 2013 #333

Excellently put. TimberValley Apr 2013 #335

Who is saying this shit?????? MADem Apr 2013 #2

That's what I'd like to know: where did that ridiculous statement come from? pacalo Apr 2013 #4

i am not going to call out any durs by name arely staircase Apr 2013 #12

Don't put too much stock in giving long-time members "with as many or more posts than even you" pacalo Apr 2013 #34

indeed - i just refuse to call such people feminists arely staircase Apr 2013 #36

I was just talking to a long-time female DUer on the phone about this. UnrepentantLiberal Apr 2013 #28

remember the ill-fated meta forum? arely staircase Apr 2013 #37

It was DU's Ia Drang Valley. UnrepentantLiberal Apr 2013 #42

I kinda miss that forum... octothorpe Apr 2013 #327

... Summer Hathaway Apr 2013 #66

Exactly. RiffRandell Apr 2013 #280

+1 Raine1967 Apr 2013 #294

Where did you read "all men are potential rapists"? pacalo Apr 2013 #5

Straw Man Weekly? Blecht Apr 2013 #6

Until I get a link, that's as good an answer as none at all. pacalo Apr 2013 #7

it here in gd arely staircase Apr 2013 #13

Actually, you are allowed to link to a post when it advocates a position. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #16

Post removed Post removed Apr 2013 #19

Did you read the posts from your search? Because the several that I read said no such thing... Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #24

people are defending it in this very thread arely staircase Apr 2013 #25

One person is proposing that it is a tactic not that they agree. Essentially agreeing with your OP. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #26

so it is a tactic? arely staircase Apr 2013 #27

Until you present evidence that it is actually happening, then we might have that Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #30

do you agree with this tactic? do you agree with the statement "all men are potential rapists"? arely staircase Apr 2013 #32

I know that I have taught my daughter that no matter where Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #102

Well, it has been used. theKed Apr 2013 #147

So? As was pointed out elsewhere, potential does not mean future Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #155

Quite right. theKed Apr 2013 #166

This message was self-deleted by its author KittyWampus Apr 2013 #132

FALSE BainsBane Apr 2013 #92

Following the link from the "buffet" and Le Taz Hot Apr 2013 #70

uh huh arely staircase Apr 2013 #76

Turrets? Le Taz Hot Apr 2013 #78

wow arely staircase Apr 2013 #80

Hey, I'm not the one Le Taz Hot Apr 2013 #85

that's probably about as classy BainsBane Apr 2013 #94

The 'buffet' is not saying what you claim. Why are you misrepresenting the facts? HiPointDem Apr 2013 #75

you reaize iis being defended in this very thread, right? arely staircase Apr 2013 #83

i don't see that. i also see that your claim isn't borne out by your link. the opposite in fact. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #88

tell us, show us BainsBane Apr 2013 #95

This. theKed Apr 2013 #148

funny, that's not the member the OP BainsBane Apr 2013 #149

Point being? theKed Apr 2013 #160

0 posts in the last 90 days BainsBane Apr 2013 #152

A bit dismissive. theKed Apr 2013 #162

The OP said "recent" BainsBane Apr 2013 #169

I don't see any outrage in my post theKed Apr 2013 #176

You should stop this! Sissyk Apr 2013 #110

This ^^^ treestar Apr 2013 #128

LOL Canuckistanian Apr 2013 #213

Apparently from "feminists" according to post #1. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #11

i wouldn't call the advocates of this position feminists arely staircase Apr 2013 #14

I think a more accurate term would be "disruptors." MADem Apr 2013 #15

Perhaps the OP is making DU suck. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #17

I think you and I may agree Sissyk Apr 2013 #112

+1 nt arely staircase Apr 2013 #18

You were asked Summer Hathaway Apr 2013 #64

Logically 'feminists' would advance glassful of empty-headed nonsense being passed off as 'feminism' Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #87

Firstly ... Summer Hathaway Apr 2013 #104

Setting the treasure hunt aside for the moment, would you vote to hide if you did see it? n/t lumberjack_jeff Apr 2013 #284

Here. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2013 #286

all it takes is a choice undergroundpanther Apr 2013 #303

its purpose is to antagonize, and at that it is quite efficient. haikugal Apr 2013 #8

as is the purpose of this thread BainsBane Apr 2013 #51

The average human has slightly less than one testicle. Socal31 Apr 2013 #10

I think the goal of this statement is to help men to be more mindful of their behavior. ZombieHorde Apr 2013 #20

and what better way to illicit introspection and mindfulness than calling someone a potential rapist arely staircase Apr 2013 #21

Feminists have been using strong tactics for a long, long time, ZombieHorde Apr 2013 #23

you are correct undergroundpanther Apr 2013 #304

Let me guess BainsBane Apr 2013 #33

do you agree with it? arely staircase Apr 2013 #35

Of course not BainsBane Apr 2013 #47

is this the shame me into shutting up tactic? the "it doesn't exist" tactic didn't work did it? arely staircase Apr 2013 #56

It was an effort BainsBane Apr 2013 #58

so you are cultivating my compasion now with baseless speculation? arely staircase Apr 2013 #62

I can't cultivate anything BainsBane Apr 2013 #65

well, thanks for trying arely staircase Apr 2013 #67

Out of curiosity BainsBane Apr 2013 #71

so now you're attempting the bullshit "shame me" defense. What a piece of work you are. You throw KittyWampus Apr 2013 #134

Your answer translates as MattBaggins Apr 2013 #186

I think it is nasty for you to drag me into this, but... Bonobo Apr 2013 #38

yikes arely staircase Apr 2013 #43

So if that was your source BainsBane Apr 2013 #57

What is so yikes about that? MattBaggins Apr 2013 #188

I bet there are some quotes by Alice Schwarzer that would fit in there. redgreenandblue Apr 2013 #44

What I think is nasty BainsBane Apr 2013 #45

You did not need to call out my name like that. Bonobo Apr 2013 #60

I'll happily delete the name BainsBane Apr 2013 #61

No, you betrayed something else. Bonobo Apr 2013 #63

I actually already felt you betrayed that BainsBane Apr 2013 #68

That was a misread. Bonobo Apr 2013 #77

I asked you questions, you didn't respond BainsBane Apr 2013 #86

No, you asked a single rhetorical question plus some personal questions. Bonobo Apr 2013 #93

... BainsBane Apr 2013 #96

Again, they seemed to be not very crucial questions. Bonobo Apr 2013 #98

minor personal chit chat? BainsBane Apr 2013 #101

This message was self-deleted by its author Bonobo Apr 2013 #91

I agree. It was a very unethical thing for her to do. pacalo Apr 2013 #50

Meh ProudToBeBlueInRhody Apr 2013 #146

"Coward"?! pacalo Apr 2013 #157

I'm glad you are here with these quotes. In_The_Wind Apr 2013 #53

Have you read the works in question here? ismnotwasm Apr 2013 #109

I followed the first few links Le Taz Hot Apr 2013 #74

okay, I've figured out my confusion BainsBane Apr 2013 #89

This OP is using a false premise Le Taz Hot Apr 2013 #97

I knew it was false from the start BainsBane Apr 2013 #99

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Apr 2013 #84

How do you know about that? snooper2 Apr 2013 #133

I hope that you don't seriously believe that! In_The_Wind Apr 2013 #40

no, i think it is utter bs arely staircase Apr 2013 #46

Then, I agree with you 100%. In_The_Wind Apr 2013 #49

then why pretend someone said it recenlty BainsBane Apr 2013 #54

Less than 2 minutes theKed Apr 2013 #168

In that 2 minutes BainsBane Apr 2013 #170

And in those two minutes theKed Apr 2013 #173

You are continually dismissive or rape BainsBane Apr 2013 #177

Post removed Post removed Apr 2013 #178

One would think, for someone who thinks so highly of their own intellect, she opiate69 Apr 2013 #183

I expect she does theKed Apr 2013 #184

True, that. opiate69 Apr 2013 #185

Another occasion you laughed at rape BainsBane Apr 2013 #191

Where's the laughter in that quote? Are you sure you gave the right one? nt. polly7 Apr 2013 #219

thanks for pointing that out undergroundpanther Apr 2013 #305

Note: it was dismissive of rape MattBaggins Apr 2013 #190

thank you, see this other example BainsBane Apr 2013 #192

The post you've linked to Summer Hathaway Apr 2013 #223

And what point are you making with your statistic? pacalo Apr 2013 #182

This message was self-deleted by its author cliffordu Apr 2013 #203

Is that really what you want to add to this discussion MattBaggins Apr 2013 #205

This message was self-deleted by its author cliffordu Apr 2013 #207

This is a totally crazy idea but hear me out anyway MattBaggins Apr 2013 #204

And some of us are survivors whose stories have been ignored by the polly7 Apr 2013 #225

Having read enough of your posts to know that you've got your head screwed on straight pacalo Apr 2013 #235

Thanks pacalo, that means a lot to me. polly7 Apr 2013 #239

Their problem is that women can see through other women like a pane of glass. pacalo Apr 2013 #241

That seems...almost wilfully obtuse Spider Jerusalem Apr 2013 #48

Thank you BainsBane Apr 2013 #55

i take it at face value arely staircase Apr 2013 #59

I want to be fauxraged so I interpret it MattBaggins Apr 2013 #206

If my husband saw a woman walking alone at night, he wouldn't attack her. pacalo Apr 2013 #69

This isn't about your husband either Spider Jerusalem Apr 2013 #79

It's about my husband or any other random man when someone, such as you, says this... pacalo Apr 2013 #164

And? Do you actually have a point? Spider Jerusalem Apr 2013 #187

I was responding to what you wrote to me -- did you forget that you replied that pacalo Apr 2013 #196

Sorry, but... Spider Jerusalem Apr 2013 #202

We disagree & that's fine. pacalo Apr 2013 #216

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #220

You know that for a fact, do you. pacalo Apr 2013 #226

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #231

"Only thing" is disingenuous. pacalo Apr 2013 #236

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #237

For someone with under 20 posts... pacalo Apr 2013 #240

not if a woman was dressed conservatively and raped by guys they never would have JI7 Apr 2013 #244

Certainly not. pacalo Apr 2013 #247

are you serious ? so how should a woman dress to avoid being raped ? JI7 Apr 2013 #248

Google "people at Walmart". pacalo Apr 2013 #252

and your point ? JI7 Apr 2013 #253

Can you provide a better example of how everyday people (unwisely) dress? pacalo Apr 2013 #258

so you think those people are inviting rape by dressing that way ? JI7 Apr 2013 #260

You tell me why women let everything hang out. Please tell me what they're thinking. pacalo Apr 2013 #262

as far as rape is concerned it does not matter how/why women dress the way they do JI7 Apr 2013 #266

Even if they dress that way in hopes of attracting a man's attention Gormy Cuss Apr 2013 #302

I find this victim blaming to be appalling. myrna minx Apr 2013 #324

Good taste doesn't equate to dressing in a burka. pacalo Apr 2013 #336

Tastefully dressed women are raped too. As are children, teens, men, the elderly. myrna minx Apr 2013 #337

It's also appalling that there seems to be an ironclad, every-issue-is-black-&-white mindset pacalo Apr 2013 #338

I was raped in my own apartment wryter2000 Apr 2013 #312

What I wrote shouldn't be read with a black & white mindset. pacalo Apr 2013 #313

I'm sorry, but without data, I'm not buying the assumption that clothing matters wryter2000 Apr 2013 #314

I'm not asking you to buy it. I was replying to your question. pacalo Apr 2013 #316

Low level of self esteem? HangOnKids Apr 2013 #201

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #222

You don't have my explanation correct &, as you said, you want to "make sure you have it right"... pacalo Apr 2013 #243

I'll make sure to let my daughter know that pacalo's husband is a-okay and to go Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #218

You're reading into my posts what you wanted to read. pacalo Apr 2013 #221

Who is obsessing over it? Who claims that it is ruling their life? Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #228

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #224

I haven't a clue what you are talking about or the poster that you are referring to. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #232

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #233

For a newbie under 20 posts, it seems you'd be more concerned with building credibility pacalo Apr 2013 #249

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #250

when you mention things like how women dress it does put some blame on women JI7 Apr 2013 #251

Or it could mean being responsible pacalo Apr 2013 #254

when i see men without their shirt on i don't assume they are doing it for my attention JI7 Apr 2013 #255

Having been married to one of those "mens" for 33 years, I can assure you that men's pacalo Apr 2013 #259

women notice attractive men also JI7 Apr 2013 #263

Yes, we do. That we can agree on. pacalo Apr 2013 #265

and it doesn't mean we have a right to do anything we want to them JI7 Apr 2013 #267

No, there isn't much news about women rapists. pacalo Apr 2013 #269

Could that be because 99% of all rapists are men? KitSileya Apr 2013 #297

He's wired differently. wryter2000 Apr 2013 #315

I stand by my comment. pacalo Apr 2013 #318

I never asserted that wryter2000 Apr 2013 #319

No, you twisted what I said & inserted your own meaning into my comment. pacalo Apr 2013 #320

Yes, because talking about how victims dress isn't a very common derailing tactic. KitSileya Apr 2013 #276

This message was self-deleted by its author Dash87 Apr 2013 #296

By the same token... Behind the Aegis Apr 2013 #73

i am sorry to hear that arely staircase Apr 2013 #81

I used to think it was willful as well. Sheldon Cooper Apr 2013 #82

"...well-lit side of the road." That's where this ol' boy goes... Eleanors38 Apr 2013 #285

Frankly I don't give a shit. Why? BECAUSE I KNOW I'M NOT A FUCKING POTENTIAL RAPIST. nomorenomore08 Apr 2013 #72

ANY man MIGHT be a potential rapist BainsBane Apr 2013 #90

You could say the same for women. joeunderdog Apr 2013 #321

I agree actually BainsBane Apr 2013 #322

Message auto-removed GreenRanger Apr 2013 #100

Locking Violet_Crumble Apr 2013 #103

IMO ...should have kept it locked. n/t L0oniX Apr 2013 #106

This is a Meta call out thread BainsBane Apr 2013 #114

Kinda like you do in HOF? Sissyk Apr 2013 #120

oh, snap! opiate69 Apr 2013 #123

This is a ridiculous thread. It is obviously shit stirring and has no value. The fact that it was Squinch Apr 2013 #117

It's pure shit-stirring. Aerows Apr 2013 #118

This is pure shit stirring Meta bullshit and should have remained locked. MadrasT Apr 2013 #119

please relock this thread MattBaggins Apr 2013 #194

This is a META thread, should have stayed locked. Rex Apr 2013 #334

And of course, polly7 Apr 2013 #105

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Apr 2013 #107

Interesting seeing the names of those who "atta-girl"-ed that.. oh wait. opiate69 Apr 2013 #108

Ugh. zappaman Apr 2013 #113

Jesus UnrepentantLiberal Apr 2013 #136

I just read through that thread. What in the world does it even mean? pacalo Apr 2013 #189

The same benefits we as adults get when someone molests a child, I would imagine. polly7 Apr 2013 #227

I'm in total agreement. RiffRandell Apr 2013 #283

It's not made to antonize. It's made to energize. nt rrneck Apr 2013 #111

All humans Aerows Apr 2013 #115

Have you forgotten this from a year ago? You seemed to be grasping the concept then. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #116

Well isn't *that* interesting... MadrasT Apr 2013 #122

Particularly in light of post #19 Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #125

Yes, it IS pretty good evidence. Bonobo Apr 2013 #126

This thread is designed to do one thing Aerows Apr 2013 #127

But!! but!!! but!!! .............. opiate69 Apr 2013 #129

Absolutely no excuse to take a dishonest swipe Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #131

This post was alerted on! The jury voted 5/1 to let it stand! ohiosmith Apr 2013 #138

the take away is BainsBane Apr 2013 #145

More and more meta upon meta upon meta. Bonobo Apr 2013 #151

This whole thread is Meta BainsBane Apr 2013 #163

Some one needs to back off, that's for sure. Bonobo Apr 2013 #165

that's precisely what my SOP alert said BainsBane Apr 2013 #171

I did not disagree with the locking. Bonobo Apr 2013 #175

Thank you BainsBane Apr 2013 #179

And thank you for saying that. Bonobo Apr 2013 #181

this sounds like a very tenuous excuse for the OPs erroneous bullshit Kali Apr 2013 #140

I think it is curious that nobody seems to be grasping the concept now hfojvt Apr 2013 #130

Are we here for DU Aerows Apr 2013 #121

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 BainsBane Apr 2013 #124

Personally as a guy I've never seen anyone call "all men rapists" Arcanetrance Apr 2013 #135

Thank you! wryter2000 Apr 2013 #317

The fact that this thread Aerows Apr 2013 #137

All men are potential women and all women are potential men. Kablooie Apr 2013 #141

Is Jeff Goldblum behind the shenanigans here? Very possible. Dash87 Apr 2013 #144

I have no idea what's going on here, but... Dash87 Apr 2013 #142

Is that Aerows Apr 2013 #156

If you can't handle an actual argument about feminism BainsBane Apr 2013 #143

There really are no substantive issues on Feminism that anyone here disagrees with. Bonobo Apr 2013 #150

Who whipped up this outrage and who was the target? Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #158

In this post, it may have been the OP vs. HOF-fers, but... Bonobo Apr 2013 #159

I see quite a bit of really nasty stuff about a handful of women. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #167

I totally understand your feelings, but it really IS a two-way street. Bonobo Apr 2013 #174

I did lay out several for you BainsBane Apr 2013 #208

Could you point me to where to look please. Bonobo Apr 2013 #210

Sure BainsBane Apr 2013 #212

I am a man who has never posted in HoF MattBaggins Apr 2013 #195

They aren't many members who stand up BainsBane Apr 2013 #197

I hope you check it out and join in sometimes. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #198

Congratulations.. you managed a trifecta of meaningless dog whistles.. opiate69 Apr 2013 #199

If only I was half as good as the OP MattBaggins Apr 2013 #200

And DU is the place for "all men are potential rapists" & "all men benefit from rapists"? pacalo Apr 2013 #245

Frequently when HoF is demonized in GD (or the now defunct Meta)... MadrasT Apr 2013 #293

EEOC laws are one BainsBane Apr 2013 #161

Can you ACTUALLY point us to a real statistic on this quote: cliffordu Apr 2013 #211

Let me unpack that to try to tease out the issues. Bonobo Apr 2013 #214

priority is a good point BainsBane Apr 2013 #217

How about "all men benefit from rape"? Nye Bevan Apr 2013 #154

how about bashing rape victims? BainsBane Apr 2013 #172

Aw, Bullshit. cliffordu Apr 2013 #209

I remember "all men benefit from rape" but not "all men are potential rapists". Marr Apr 2013 #193

Why does it seem like rape is now THE favorite topic of discussion at DU? Common Sense Party Apr 2013 #215

Because rape related topics are controversial, darkangel218 Apr 2013 #264

But, when they open that door... DollarBillHines Apr 2013 #230

. Jamastiene Apr 2013 #234

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Apr 2013 #242

ouch! That's the worst meme ever invented. delrem Apr 2013 #246

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Apr 2013 #256

Let me make this SIMPLE undergroundpanther Apr 2013 #257

Youre wrong. darkangel218 Apr 2013 #261

1% of rapists are women BainsBane Apr 2013 #270

I agree is very rare. But still, that proves one doesnt need a penis to rape. darkangel218 Apr 2013 #271

true, and some men use objects BainsBane Apr 2013 #272

explain.. undergroundpanther Apr 2013 #273

In some cases, rape is not about sexual gratification, but rather about power control. darkangel218 Apr 2013 #274

Your narrative is absurd dipsydoodle Apr 2013 #268

a rare few maybe but even than,they stay flaccid undergroundpanther Apr 2013 #275

Your argument is as ignorant as the judge that made the comment about "juices flowing." Behind the Aegis Apr 2013 #277

ok undergroundpanther Apr 2013 #278

Your post is nauseating on so many levels. Bonobo Apr 2013 #282

This is the most ridiculous load of crap I have read HappyMe Apr 2013 #279

"Rape is a CHOICE made in the mind of a penis owner to use that penis as a weapon" EOTE Apr 2013 #289

So all women are potential false accusers. Dreamer Tatum Apr 2013 #308

then refrescanos Jul 2013 #339

Hello ~ refrescanos In_The_Wind Aug 2013 #340

I have rape fatigue. randome Apr 2013 #288

Thank Arley for this bullshit OP bettyellen Apr 2013 #300

All people are potential criminals of all kinds treestar Apr 2013 #291

Flamebait- the Duer you are trying to slime never said that. bettyellen Apr 2013 #295

God,DU is becoming a nasty place. sufrommich Apr 2013 #298

This is a true statement, like it or not shawn703 Apr 2013 #299

Do you give out your social security number to strangers? wryter2000 Apr 2013 #301

Best answer in the thread. ^^^^ Squinch Apr 2013 #309

Thanks! wryter2000 Apr 2013 #311

No One 4Q2u2 Apr 2013 #307

The OP is a strawman. No one here said what he's claiming they said. nomorenomore08 Apr 2013 #310

OP Strawman Yes 4Q2u2 Apr 2013 #323