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Tipperary

(6,930 posts)

297. I think that poster completely missed the point lol.

Reply to Egnever (Reply #90)

Thu Apr 19, 2018, 09:40 AM

Apr 2018

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Black man blocked from entering NJ gym where hes a paid member and even the cops are confused [View all] MrScorpio Apr 2018 OP

What the???? Proud Liberal Dem Apr 2018 #1

Exactly what I was going to say ailsagirl Apr 2018 #35

White people, we are all complicit in this abuse, one way or the other. DemocracyMouse Apr 2018 #229

So True ConnorMarc Apr 2018 #248

The word is faze. Not phase. Two different meanings. Tipperary Apr 2018 #295

I suspect that their customer service folks at corporate Sherman A1 Apr 2018 #2

Maybe they should follow Starbucks' example NewJeffCT Apr 2018 #7

Sue them malaise Apr 2018 #3

Good thing roles arent reversed , the you know who's would burn down the city Eliot Rosewater Apr 2018 #27

I think there is underground encouragement going on. dixiegrrrrl Apr 2018 #112

"increasingly blatant police murders of black men." bluescribbler Apr 2018 #122

I agree! nt Anon-C Apr 2018 #156

ditto. same AllaN01Bear Apr 2018 #211

Kick dalton99a Apr 2018 #4

Uh-oh...LA Fitness is not going to have a good day MineralMan Apr 2018 #5

And the police RIGHTFULLY questioned the manager's account and apparently WERE NOT bound to arrest hlthe2b Apr 2018 #6

of course the police had a choice barbtries Apr 2018 #16

I finally had to put some posters on ignore they were so adamant the Philly police had no choice hlthe2b Apr 2018 #17

no kidding. fun story barbtries Apr 2018 #21

Wow! Scary story, but interesting... hlthe2b Apr 2018 #24

Not surprising. No jurisdiction over "traffic" incident on private property, shanny Apr 2018 #31

I suppose none of those people have ever heard of PBA cards? vi5 Apr 2018 #89

That's what I don't understand either. procon Apr 2018 #22

This ignores the differences between the two cases ExciteBike66 Apr 2018 #28

I never said the police were acting in a racist manner. I said they were derelect in arresting hlthe2b Apr 2018 #29

Lots of strawmanning going on around here EffieBlack Apr 2018 #38

par for the course... hlthe2b Apr 2018 #42

We're gonna need a bigger bale.(nt) ehrnst Apr 2018 #134

Here's the thing... ConnorMarc Apr 2018 #262

This is not entirely correct ExciteBike66 Apr 2018 #43

I can give you lists too, but I'll simply let you be content with the police force you deserve hlthe2b Apr 2018 #45

Nice insults, but they are not arguments ExciteBike66 Apr 2018 #54

I've made my arguments and am refusing further contact with someone who advocates AGAINST hlthe2b Apr 2018 #61

Now that is really insulting ExciteBike66 Apr 2018 #72

Holding accountable means corrective TRAINING and not just for these two. hlthe2b Apr 2018 #82

I'm all for more training for the police, ExciteBike66 Apr 2018 #84

Well then we have one area of agreement. I think we should leave it there. hlthe2b Apr 2018 #85

Unless YOU are one of those unprofessional type of police officers to which I refer, no insult hlthe2b Apr 2018 #75

Not sure why this has become such a huge mission of this poster. EffieBlack Apr 2018 #58

yes. I wonder TOO hlthe2b Apr 2018 #62

WAYYY too hard. EffieBlack Apr 2018 #65

I'm curious about it too mcar Apr 2018 #140

I expect you didn't read my response to you in the other thread BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #48

I agree. A business is private property. Honeycombe8 Apr 2018 #239

And what if they pretend as in the Starbucks case that it is a non-discriminatory reason but it Demsrule86 Apr 2018 #244

Well, I'm cursed with a logical mind. Honeycombe8 Apr 2018 #249

I read your post, and you did opine it could be a set up...so it is their fault Demsrule86 Apr 2018 #251

Why didnt they buy one lousy cup of coffee? EffieBlack Apr 2018 #255

Exactly. You don't know all the facts. And neither do I. Honeycombe8 Apr 2018 #258

Its not up to the men to prove they had a right to be there or that racism was a motive for their EffieBlack Apr 2018 #259

I Call BS! ConnorMarc Apr 2018 #263

You are so wrong. They were politely waiting for their friend to order. At my Starbucks people sit Oppaloopa Apr 2018 #273

Well guess what it appears...corporate doesn't agree with you in either the Starbucks case Demsrule86 Apr 2018 #242

Stop insulting me ExciteBike66 Apr 2018 #268

I am not insulting you...but we both now the 'tresspass' thing has been used for years to keep Demsrule86 Apr 2018 #282

You are wrong as to the legal side. ExciteBike66 Apr 2018 #291

You're ignoring context. Why? Boomer Apr 2018 #283

You are missing my point ExciteBike66 Apr 2018 #290

How much of the police response was affected by the fact that the initial 911 call pnwmom Apr 2018 #266

It might have played a role, sure ExciteBike66 Apr 2018 #269

Yeah, but like I said, police see crimes committed every day that they decide to let go. pnwmom Apr 2018 #272

On the other hand, you admit they have the discretion, right? ExciteBike66 Apr 2018 #289

I know I am purportedly on ignore BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #296

Hah! And that will be easily provable since at least one person videotaped the arrest. n/t pnwmom Apr 2018 #302

The whole episode was completely jacked up. BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #303

Yes, and they didn't exercise it well. Thanks for the link! pnwmom Apr 2018 #301

which is de facto Jim Crow radius777 Apr 2018 #308

Perhaps it should be changed ExciteBike66 Apr 2018 #311

Correct !! and what if the two men owned the that store ?! The police going on the managers uponit7771 Apr 2018 #52

The police did act stupidly, the two men in Philly could've owned the store and arresting them uponit7771 Apr 2018 #51

Well, if the men had owned the store, ExciteBike66 Apr 2018 #60

This is not the case with multi owned franchises, store managers rarely meet the owners ... uponit7771 Apr 2018 #66

But the cops didn't just do what the manager said! ExciteBike66 Apr 2018 #70

And the cops refused to talk to any witnesses BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #76

Yep, all they had to do is look around.The PPD had the opportunity to do so and decided not to uponit7771 Apr 2018 #78

Because that didn't matter, really. Honeycombe8 Apr 2018 #240

It DID matter BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #274

I disagree. Honeycombe8 Apr 2018 #307

Where do I start? BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #312

Long post. But suffice to say, we agree to disagree. Honeycombe8 Apr 2018 #313

"There is real racism out there. I don't see it here." How do you define "real racism?" EffieBlack Apr 2018 #316

Yes we can agree to disagree but I will still comment BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #317

"The employee isn't a lawyer." Exactly. Which is why police don't arrest people just on her say so EffieBlack Apr 2018 #315

Store owners have no legal right to make customers leave unless they're violating a lawful condition EffieBlack Apr 2018 #314

Yes, asking them to leave not assessing the situation via witness's. Again, the police should uponit7771 Apr 2018 #77

Then all of the white customers who said liberalhistorian Apr 2018 #87

But all of that reflects on the manager's actions, not those of the police. ExciteBike66 Apr 2018 #101

I am exhausted with your thin blue lining on threads obamanut2012 Apr 2018 #108

I already responded to this on your other post, ExciteBike66 Apr 2018 #118

True Thank you . Why is this so hard for people to comprehend? Oppaloopa Apr 2018 #275

The cops had the discretion of whether or not to arrest liberalhistorian Apr 2018 #111

I have explained this already ExciteBike66 Apr 2018 #119

"continue to trespass'?? panader0 Apr 2018 #208

Actually, I have never done what happened here ExciteBike66 Apr 2018 #270

Wrong, the LA Fitness men were trespassing as much as the SBX men obamanut2012 Apr 2018 #103

Legally this might not be true, if they were members. ExciteBike66 Apr 2018 #116

if they did not call cops on WHITE trespassers, it IS racism. pansypoo53219 Apr 2018 #198

I agree wholeheartedly ExciteBike66 Apr 2018 #201

This! mcar Apr 2018 #137

id be voting with my feet and wallet. AllaN01Bear Apr 2018 #213

Good the police did the right thing TNLib Apr 2018 #8

amen this could have been worse dembotoz Apr 2018 #33

White people seem to be shocked that example after example of this ismnotwasm Apr 2018 #9

i was in LA during the Rodney King days barbtries Apr 2018 #20

So sick of being asked for proof of racism HipChick Apr 2018 #23

IKR? EffieBlack Apr 2018 #39

Exactly.. HipChick Apr 2018 #219

Yeah. Me as well. irisblue Apr 2018 #41

Yeah, I've gotten that. 'I didn't see it when I was growing up. ' Really? You were raised in a box? byronius Apr 2018 #47

They don't see it because it doesn't affect THEM! ConnorMarc Apr 2018 #264

I like you EffieBlack Apr 2018 #265

Right back atcha! ConnorMarc Apr 2018 #306

+1... SidDithers Apr 2018 #67

+1, some people want to ignore even the base amount of racism that occurs uponit7771 Apr 2018 #80

Ditto, same goes for liberalhistorian Apr 2018 #92

Which white people? Egnever Apr 2018 #73

Of course that's what your focus is on. LanternWaste Apr 2018 #88

it's literaly what the post was about Egnever Apr 2018 #90

I think that poster completely missed the point lol. Tipperary Apr 2018 #297

Same way I'm shocked by examples of misogyny since I benefit from the patriarchy IronLionZion Apr 2018 #195

that racist bastard soiling the people's house has allowed all the scum to crawl out from niyad Apr 2018 #10

Exactly what hitler did. I just watched a series on him. Racism was his first point of attack. notdarkyet Apr 2018 #12

yep can not have a master race with out a non master race dembotoz Apr 2018 #30

And DUers defend them EffieBlack Apr 2018 #64

I mentioned this "political climate" to someone today, and how Ilsa Apr 2018 #231

True Oppaloopa Apr 2018 #276

Add another thing to the LONG & GROWING list of things you CANNOT do while black .... LenaBaby61 Apr 2018 #11

Two stars rating on Yelp gyroscope Apr 2018 #13

They suck around where I am, and liberalhistorian Apr 2018 #97

Can't describe how mad this makes me rurallib Apr 2018 #14

Un-f'ing-believable. BobTheSubgenius Apr 2018 #15

Again, an example of how cops aren't required to arrest people just because a manager calls them. EffieBlack Apr 2018 #18

Yep. Where's the outrage? Iggo Apr 2018 #37

different situation though Egnever Apr 2018 #50

The issue is the cops assessing the situation at Starbucks, they failed to IMHO and allowed the uponit7771 Apr 2018 #59

How did they fail? Egnever Apr 2018 #69

Not taking in the account of the people that were there and there are plenty of white uponit7771 Apr 2018 #74

it doesn't matter if the policy is set in stone Egnever Apr 2018 #79

The cops shouldn't ask someone to leave based off of obviously racist reasons either and if they uponit7771 Apr 2018 #81

the cops didnt ask someone to leave Egnever Apr 2018 #83

The managers decision was based off of race, we both know this .... uponit7771 Apr 2018 #93

The cops are supposedly TRAINED BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #100

The "I was just following orders" defense, redux!! Mad_Mongol Apr 2018 #230

Meanwhile, innocent black men keep getting locked up and it is EffieBlack Apr 2018 #234

But Effie didn't you hear 'all they had to do was buy a cup of coffee' (sarcasm). Demsrule86 Apr 2018 #246

And then guess how many jellybeans in the jar - or was it how many bubbles in a bar of soap? EffieBlack Apr 2018 #252

Exactly, prove they have earned the 'privilege' of sitting in Starbucks. Demsrule86 Apr 2018 #286

I'd ignore the dramatic lack of interviewing relevant witnesses also LanternWaste Apr 2018 #91

Right !! I don't see how this is not obvious. They could've asked why are you wanting these uponit7771 Apr 2018 #99

Can you show me in the trespassing laws for PA Lee-Lee Apr 2018 #136

Don't we have some amendments where people can't be arrested etc based off race? uponit7771 Apr 2018 #141

Here is how it works Lee-Lee Apr 2018 #152

Lee, your first statement is overtly false ... the decision to kick them out was based off race and uponit7771 Apr 2018 #161

The cops did not need to assess that the request was racially motivated EffieBlack Apr 2018 #166

Thx for this info, sounds like since there was no posting of the rules then there was no rules that uponit7771 Apr 2018 #169

Exactly EffieBlack Apr 2018 #193

You have to stand up to racism...and it shed light on this dirty practice. Demsrule86 Apr 2018 #245

Here you go EffieBlack Apr 2018 #159

There it is then uponit7771 Apr 2018 #167

You say... tonedevil Apr 2018 #95

i know exactly the difference Egnever Apr 2018 #98

Please ask these people to leave because they're black is not OK nor is any other indication uponit7771 Apr 2018 #106

they were asked to leave because they were not paying cutsomers Egnever Apr 2018 #109

That's an arrestable offense now? Seriously? ehrnst Apr 2018 #110

Where do you live where trespassing is not an arrest able offense? Egnever Apr 2018 #115

I think that "trespassing" isn't really applicable here ehrnst Apr 2018 #117

what you believe is irrelevant Egnever Apr 2018 #121

Actually, your knowlege of law seems to lack relevant areas. ehrnst Apr 2018 #128

Trespassing is absolutely applicable Lee-Lee Apr 2018 #139

Could you post a link to the statute? ehrnst Apr 2018 #150

Here you go Lee-Lee Apr 2018 #171

So, you are saying that the manager was wrong to ask them to leave ehrnst Apr 2018 #180

Yes, essentially Lee-Lee Apr 2018 #225

Thank you! Egnever Apr 2018 #202

Under Pennsylvania law, they had every right to be there unless the public was put on notice EffieBlack Apr 2018 #120

Here you go again with those "facts" and "knowledge." ehrnst Apr 2018 #125

Well I am not a lawyer and I certainly don't know Pennsylvania law. Egnever Apr 2018 #127

But that doesn't stop you from splaining the law to everybody, does it? ehrnst Apr 2018 #130

nope Egnever Apr 2018 #132

It helps to have an understanding of something when you lecture others about it. ehrnst Apr 2018 #135

heres someone eelse who also knows it Egnever Apr 2018 #142

Not seeing the word "trespass" in there. ehrnst Apr 2018 #148

Trespass occurs when you are asked to leave and refuse to do so Egnever Apr 2018 #151

Legal definitions are specific. ehrnst Apr 2018 #157

here since you seem to be confused Egnever Apr 2018 #163

This law is inapplicable EffieBlack Apr 2018 #175

That would have to be determined in a court Egnever Apr 2018 #187

Good Lord - please just stop EffieBlack Apr 2018 #190

explain it to me Egnever Apr 2018 #197

I think you seem to be confused a bit ehrnst Apr 2018 #183

No. That's not true EffieBlack Apr 2018 #170

OK but it is not the job of the police to determine if those conditions are met Egnever Apr 2018 #181

Yes, it is indeed the responsibility of the police to do just that EffieBlack Apr 2018 #185

Like the folks at the lunch counter in Greensboro during the Civil Rights movement? ehrnst Apr 2018 #192

not if due to race/gender/orientation radius777 Apr 2018 #309

I don't care what some Virginia-based attorney says about federal law EffieBlack Apr 2018 #179

except Egnever Apr 2018 #138

So when does it become "trespass" and an arrestable offense? ehrnst Apr 2018 #147

They weren't charged under federal law EffieBlack Apr 2018 #182

hmmmmm, good point ... if the reasons aren't posted then how in the hell are they supposed to know!? uponit7771 Apr 2018 #145

except they were posted Egnever Apr 2018 #153

That link nor quote claim the rules were posted for all to see. uponit7771 Apr 2018 #154

Where does it say it was posted? ehrnst Apr 2018 #162

+1, I think this ends this debate on whether the police took the right steps. I ASSumed the rules uponit7771 Apr 2018 #174

The rules don't have to be posted Egnever Apr 2018 #204

Posting of the rules is proof that there ARE such rules EffieBlack Apr 2018 #207

doesn't have to be posted Egnever Apr 2018 #191

If you insist on arguing the law with a lawyer and law professor who taught Con Law, Crim Pro and EffieBlack Apr 2018 #206

I want to understand the law professor Egnever Apr 2018 #212

Purchasing is NOT a store wide policy, nor was it the policy of that particular stor EffieBlack Apr 2018 #215

Sorry I just don't agree Egnever Apr 2018 #217

It's not a matter of whether you agree or not. It's just a fact. EffieBlack Apr 2018 #218

To your point it, looks like Starbucks doesn't have policy towards bathroom (link inside) uponit7771 Apr 2018 #222

Still lots of disagreement here Egnever Apr 2018 #235

Whether you accept it or not, that is the law EffieBlack Apr 2018 #250

The video in your post BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #279

Yet people are still telling me, right on this "Democratic" board, that it's our imagination EffieBlack Apr 2018 #280

Exactly BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #281

It wasn't store policy because Starbucks hasn't given one (per Starbucks) link inside uponit7771 Apr 2018 #220

They were asked to leave because of their skin color we both know that and the police could've uponit7771 Apr 2018 #123

Their decision was not based on race Egnever Apr 2018 #155

The managers decision WAS based on race and that was assessable by relevant witness's uponit7771 Apr 2018 #164

but has no bearing on their removal at that point in time Egnever Apr 2018 #168

Much like the people who sat in at the segregated lunch counters in Greensboro ehrnst Apr 2018 #186

now you're just silly Egnever Apr 2018 #188

Hit home, didn't I? ehrnst Apr 2018 #196

Whose decision? ehrnst Apr 2018 #165

It doesn't matter what the decision was based on EffieBlack Apr 2018 #209

"Clearly racists of her but matters not to the cops." BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #107

it can't Egnever Apr 2018 #114

So why were the "trespassers" released, without being charged? ehrnst Apr 2018 #124

who was going to press the charges? Egnever Apr 2018 #129

Didn't you declare that they were "trespassing" under the "legal definition?" ehrnst Apr 2018 #143

you are nothing but questions with never an answer Egnever Apr 2018 #149

Now you're trashing the Starbuck's CEO as being only concerned with "the bottom line" ehrnst Apr 2018 #172

The manager who called seeing she had good reasons to press them right? tia uponit7771 Apr 2018 #144

No one pressed any charges BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #194

They tried to get them to leave for 10 minutes, Egnever Apr 2018 #200

Why was it their job to "get them to leave" BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #203

argh this is a circular argument Egnever Apr 2018 #205

"argh this is a circular argument" BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #210

Why should they leave...as other customers pointed out they had done nothing wrong...why do Demsrule86 Apr 2018 #237

Because they were non paying customers Egnever Apr 2018 #241

People sit in Starbucks for hours without buying anything. This was about racism...and Demsrule86 Apr 2018 #253

absolutely on the part of the employee Egnever Apr 2018 #261

"The employee was being racist full stop. That has nothing to do with the cops or their actions." BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #277

so white folks use the bathroom which happened during the incident without buy...but these guys who Demsrule86 Apr 2018 #285

When the other motivations are OBVIOUS but not stated then what should the police do. Thx in advance uponit7771 Apr 2018 #133

Here is what the deal is and what you do BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #160

That argument was made in the South during the Jim Crow days...and it is used Demsrule86 Apr 2018 #236

You did not negate a thing the person you are responding to wrote. NCTraveler Apr 2018 #214

+1, the cops still have to assess a situation not just take someones word for it uponit7771 Apr 2018 #56

Dude circumstances Lee-Lee Apr 2018 #126

There were no rules posted therefore the cops had no reason to remove the two black men. uponit7771 Apr 2018 #177

The "You're a Special Kind of Stupid Award" goes to LA Fitness and its management. n/t sarge43 Apr 2018 #19

I imagine there are multiple lawyers willing to take his case. Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Apr 2018 #25

I hope these two GallopingGhost Apr 2018 #26

well... sagetea Apr 2018 #32

Give them a taste of non-violent hell. saidsimplesimon Apr 2018 #34

Can I say I love that the cops allowed him to continue filming. Egnever Apr 2018 #36

As Gregg Popovich so famously stated Ferrets are Cool Apr 2018 #40

Every Day. BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #44

Sue the motherfuckers. malthaussen Apr 2018 #46

I love the comment by the officer in your last sentence. Good for him. And you're right... George II Apr 2018 #49

"Secaucus is right across the river from NYC" BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #86

Are LA Fitness gyms franchises, or are they all owned by the parent company? Brother Buzz Apr 2018 #53

L.A. Fitness fires 3 workers after black men get kicked out of N.J. gym KY_EnviroGuy Apr 2018 #55

A perfect response by the company. MineralMan Apr 2018 #57

"A paid member of L.A. Fitness for eight years" dalton99a Apr 2018 #227

Is this crap becoming more prevalent because of Trump, being caught on video, or a combination argyl Apr 2018 #63

I'm sure he gave racist tendencies voice in the conscience of some Americans uponit7771 Apr 2018 #68

"I do wish I'd had the chance to go to school with and have African American friends as a child." EffieBlack Apr 2018 #71

Thank you. I always enjoy and learn something from your posts. argyl Apr 2018 #105

Thank you! EffieBlack Apr 2018 #113

What in the entire ****? AllyCat Apr 2018 #94

Cell phones are great. Blue_true Apr 2018 #96

This country is so damn full of hatters and religious freaks. n/t RKP5637 Apr 2018 #102

Misleading headline: " ... and even the cops are confused" JustABozoOnThisBus Apr 2018 #104

I interpreted "confused" meaning BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #176

LA Fitness is very, very good about disciplining employees and patrons obamanut2012 Apr 2018 #131

They have, looks like the two people who badgered the guy were fired uponit7771 Apr 2018 #146

This chain needs a good boycotting and picketing event onetexan Apr 2018 #158

Seems like a serious overreaction TCJ70 Apr 2018 #173

your response is a bit naive onetexan Apr 2018 #189

What sort of measures would you like to see? TCJ70 Apr 2018 #199

"...will not tolerate it in any shape or form"? Or else what? Steven Maurer Apr 2018 #228

They fired the two people badgering the member uponit7771 Apr 2018 #178

yes but alot more action needs to be taken to ensure this crap doesn't happen any more onetexan Apr 2018 #184

Please describe additional actions required Blue_Adept Apr 2018 #232

three fired Demovictory9 Apr 2018 #216

Sweet Justice! swishyfeet Apr 2018 #233

K & R for exposure. SunSeeker Apr 2018 #221

Sorry I helped hijack your thread - the Starbucks barfight tumbled out of EffieBlack Apr 2018 #223

I don't think the folks shocked over Starbucks Blue_Tires Apr 2018 #224

A coworker in a different department enlightened several of us in my group last week. MissB Apr 2018 #271

At least the cops were smarter in this case lame54 Apr 2018 #226

So, let me get this straight. If you are a black man, you raven mad Apr 2018 #238

+1000 Demsrule86 Apr 2018 #247

And you don't even have to be a "man" BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #284

I cannot understand. Really, I can't. raven mad Apr 2018 #287

The "Other" BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #288

Then, I am very grateful to those who raised me. raven mad Apr 2018 #300

When even the cops think you're overeacting to some Abu Pepe Apr 2018 #243

This! EffieBlack Apr 2018 #256

Sue these assholes until it hurts. onecaliberal Apr 2018 #254

Damn it, this has got to stop! Nitram Apr 2018 #257

According to quite a few people in DU, theres nothing to stop because it doesnt exist EffieBlack Apr 2018 #260

Nope, feel worse. Liberals who haven't noticed the racism all around (and even within) them are not Nitram Apr 2018 #298

Cancelling my membership first thing in the morning, after I get all the facts. ecstatic Apr 2018 #267

Coming into this late... mark67 Apr 2018 #278

self-delete pnwmom Apr 2018 #304

My YMCA is diverse and welcoming. klook Apr 2018 #292

At one time they were NOT BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #293

I cannot understand the problem with his membership, but filming or photography is prohibited. Tipperary Apr 2018 #294

The filming took place because an egregious act was was happening ChubbyStar Apr 2018 #305

They canceled his membership??!! CrispyQ Apr 2018 #299

Aside from all this friggin racism, is anyone else annoyed that these dumbassess tulipsandroses Apr 2018 #310