Legit question for folks of this group!

[OrwellwasRight]

A bit of my background: I was brought up in a religious, but not overly so, household. Baptized, Sunday School, confirmed, even a bit of church summer camp. Gave it all up when I was told things like “God has a plan” in response to family deaths and tragedies that should happen to no one. If my suffering and pain is part of someone’s plan, that’s not a plan I wanted any part of.

That said, when people say things like “Trump was saved through God’s grace,” what does that mean to a progressive Christian? To me, a non-religious person, it sounds like an insult to the people God didn’t save. Like, what about Competore? What about the 60 people killed in Vegas by the mass shooter there? No grace for them? Is this kind of arbitrariness taken as a positive aspect of Christianity that is just over my head?

I kind of feel the same way when football teams thank God for their victories. Like, ok, are you saying God loves you more than the other team? That can’t possibly be true, to my way of thinking. But maybe I’m missing something.

I have a clear bias. I know that. These statements must have a positive meaning that I’m not understanding. Otherwise, people would not say them. Can someone shed some light on what I missed in my religious upbringing to help me understand?

Thanks in advance.

[northoftheborder]

1. Coming from a similar background----

I cannot believe that there is an all powerful being pulling strings to alter events on earth - especially in response to prayers or supposed punishment or reward. I have a belief in a spiritual being available to me in a personal way for inspiration, understanding, strength of purpose, peace.

[OrwellwasRight]

5. Thank you.

[3Hotdogs]

9. IF prayers were answered, we'd all be dead.

[SARose]

2. Great question

Not a religious scholar or theologian - just a plain ole Methodist.

Let’s see what Jesus says in Matthew 6:5-8

And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

Whoa!!

What does He mean?

Don’t pray loudly;
Don’t use a lot of meaningless words;
Prayer should be a private time between you and God.

I think people say these things because they don’t know what to say. Soooo how about a hug and I’m sorry?

Kills me at sporting events to hear prayer for “victory.” Little militaristic don’t you think? God is on our side nener nener. No He isn’t.

Some people, sadly enough, say these things to elevate themselves above others. My Mother once told me anytime a human claims to know God’s mind - run!

You will probably laugh but I truly believe some folks believe God is Santa Claus. 🙄

[OrwellwasRight]

6. Thanks!

Wow. Seems like a few mega church pastors could afford to read that passage as well.

Santa Claus seems like a good analogy. It will always be hard to answers questions of life’s mysteries, but I agree that some folks have a tone of “nener, nener,” which just baffles me. I guess these folks don’t consider how it would feel if God ever “changed sides” on them.

[BlueKota]

3. The explanation I found

that gave me an explanation I can live with is a book written by Rabbi Howard Kushner. No relation to Jared. He suffered a tragedy in his family, and began to question why as he had devoted his life to serving God.

He came to the conclusion that as humans we can chose to see God as all loving or all powerful, but he can't be both. If he were both he'd prevent horrible things from happening to those who honor him. He concludes that God is not all powerful because he chose to give humans free will, and if they choose to do bad things to others with that, he can't stop them. All he can do is offer strength and comfort to those suffering so they can survive the bad stuff.

Plus I sincerely believe that there is evil in this world, and I honestly believe Trump has chosen to be pure evil.

As for praying to win games, or elections, I think there are two possibilities The first is people honestly want to believe God can make it happen, but he can't. Secondly, my more cynical side thinks some people pretend they are devout believers because they think it will win them brownie points with others.

[OrwellwasRight]

7. I hear ya on the hypocrites.

Some seem not even good hypocrites. Like people who zero percent live their lives as if they follow any religion, but then pull out religious language in public statement. But they somehow get away with it.

Rabbi Kushner seems like a smart guy. I’ll keep that theory in mind.

Thanks!

[Miami Blue]

4. Hola Orwell,

I understand your viewpoints and I sense the same feelings sometimes. Nevertheless, I think that you lack religious convictions in your life.
But that's okay. Because I don't think that a lack of motivation to do religious practices makes a person a bad human being. Many people who have lived through a lot of bad experiences usually feel the same way as you feel.
Also, that's a typical behavior for anyone who communicates strong emotions.
Conceivably you have been through a bunch of harsh experiences in your life that are still sticking with you and make you feel apprehensive about religious beliefs.
The good news is that you are not the only one who feels that way. Nowadays more people are leaving their churches because they don't have the desire to practice the faith in the form that was taught to them as children. Today we have more agnostic across the USA than expected and sadly that's a trend/ way of behaving in today's society.
As you know an Agnostic / Nonreligious person
is a a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God. Btw, you are alright, so don't even worry about it. So hang in there just make sure that
you, your family, and your friends vote for Joe Biden.

[OrwellwasRight]

8. Thanks, Miami!

And definitely voting for Biden (or, to be clear whoever the D is, but I expect it to be Biden).

[3Hotdogs]

10. Mark Twain, "The War Prayer."

[Quazie]

11. All good questions!

Here are my thoughts on your questions (in reverse order):

I think athletes thank God for many reasons. I think they recognize that hard work alone does not encompass all the reasons for their victories. Their physical talent, their health (injuries), and the sheer luck that often comes in winning a game all play a big part too. In any given year, there are only about 5000 athletes in the big 3 professional leagues (NFL/MLB/NBA), so they also know they are very lucky to play games for millions of dollars per year.

With regards to the Trump assassination attempt, there is not even consensus among my Facebook conservative Christian friends. Most broadly, people everywhere always will tend to default to "God likes the things I like, and dislikes the things I dislike." Grace for the things I like and judgment for the things I don't. This is human nature, our souls searching for justice when we don't really have an inborn understanding of what's actually going on. Personally, I think a utilitarian argument could be made though, that God showed grace on America by keeping Trump alive. Shit would have really hit the fan for more than just the Competore family if Trump had been killed.

To the final problem- the problem of suffering- there is no good answer. Only satisfying or unsatisfying answers. You have to remember, that from a Christian perspective, we are the cause of our suffering (including death) through our sin. God's power and wisdom allow him to take the suffering we produce, and change it into something actually useful for us. This is "God has a plan." The ultimate example of this is the Crucifixion. Jesus suffered a very painful beating and death, and experienced the full effect of our sin put upon him. God then used that suffering to fulfill a promise of eternal life in blissful communion with Him, so that anyone who believed and submitted himself and his sin to Christ, could join him forever.


Anyways, just my thoughts!

[OrwellwasRight]

12. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[wryter2000]

13. I hope someone welcomed you to DU

If not, I'm doing it now.

[wryter2000]

14. I was raised Episcopalian

And I love the church, funny hats and music of long-dead composers and all. It's how I was brought up, and it gives me great comfort. I'm agnostic, and if there is a God he/she/it probably doesn't muddle in our personal lives. It's a spiritual creature, not a decider of football games. I have felt it a couple of times. Using the trinity, I think of it as the Holy Spirit. Other people would have different names.

Much of Christianity will lead you to be a good person if you follow it.

[The Great Open Dance]

15. Perhaps God has forsaken omnipotence?

What if God is not omnipotent, what if God has forsaken omnipotence out of love for creation? If God is love, and love is uncontrolling, then God cannot control all events coercively. God might influence us persuasively, but not dictate events like a puppeteer. I think that, since God wants real relationship with real agents who have free will, God gives us freedom, and gives the universe its freedom as well.

Best,

Jon Paul Sydnor