Israel launches major offensive in Gaza after airstrikes that killed more than 100

[muriel_volestrangler]

Source: The Guardian

Israel has announced a major new offensive in Gaza after launching a wave of airstrikes on the territory that killed more than 100 people, in what it said was a fresh effort to force Hamas to release hostages.

In a statement late on Friday, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said they had “launched extensive attacks and mobilized forces to seize strategic areas in the Gaza Strip, as part of the opening moves of Operation Gideon’s Chariots and the expansion of the campaign in Gaza, to achieve all the goals of the war in Gaza”.
...
Instead, the raids and bombardment over the past 72 hours have raised the levels of violence higher than for several weeks, with the death toll coming close to that seen in the first days of Israel’s renewed offensive in Gaza after a fragile ceasefire collapsed in March.

Gaza’s civil defence agency said strikes on Friday killed 108 people, mostly women and children, and some officials in the Palestinian territory put the number killed by Israeli attacks in recent days as high as 250 or 300.

Read more: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/may/16/israel-launches-major-offensive-in-gaza-after-airstrikes-that-killed-more-than-100

[electric_blue68]

1. Geeeeebz!

[muriel_volestrangler]

2. UN Human Rights Chief: "tantamount to ethnic cleansing"

The sharp escalation of attacks and killings this week in Gaza, including Israeli strikes on hospitals, are compounding the already desperate humanitarian situation amid signs of even worse to come, UN Human Rights Chief Volker Türk said today.

“This latest barrage of bombs, forcing people to move amid the threat of intensified attacks, the methodical destruction of entire neighborhoods, and the denial of humanitarian assistance underline that there appears to be a push for a permanent demographic shift in Gaza that is in defiance of international law and is tantamount to ethnic cleansing,” Türk said.
...
“Hospitals are protected at all times - and are even more indispensable during war,” he said. “The killing of patients or of people visiting their wounded or sick loved ones, or of emergency workers or other civilians just seeking shelter, is as tragic as it is abhorrent. These attacks must cease.

“Even if, as Israel says, it was targeting Hamas command centres underground, and even if destroying these structures offered a definite military advantage at the time of the attack, it is bound by international law to ensure that constant care is taken to spare the lives of civilians, and that’s clearly not the case.”

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2025/05/turk-deplores-gaza-escalation-pleads-global-action-stop-more-killings

[Beastly Boy]

7. A fucking hyporite.

Last edited Sat May 17, 2025, 08:24 AM - Edit history (1)

UN is complicit in Hamas war crimes. It has enabled their regime in Gaza for many years. Hamas laundered UN humanitarian aid to finance their war machine and to brainwash their subjects. Hell, UN employed known terrorists in Gaza, and admitted to doing so. And to add insult to injury, Mr Turk is now pretending to be ignorant of what ethnic cleansing is.

Israel offensive is tantamount to ethnic cleansing in the same way UN is complicit in supporting terrorism.

[Eko]

38. Didn't Israel

Give money to Hamas?

[Beastly Boy]

47. No. No it didn't.

What Israel did was relax certain rules that allowed Quatari money to get to Gaza. What they did was transfer Gaza's share of taxes that PA received, as they were obligated to do under the Oslo Accords. What they did was increase the number of work permits for Gazans to work in Israel.

I am not even sure which one, if any, you are referring to.

[IbogaProject]

55. Here is some info from Israeli Newspapers

The simple summary is two wrongs don't make right. It is a shame as we have family there at risk due to very bad policies by the corrupt conservative government. I became aware of this issue decades ago as I have a friend who's parents were displaced during the Nakba in 1948. The times of Israel article from Oct 8 2023 is very informative about how Oct 7 was at best negligence or worse actively allowed to happen.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-05-18/ty-article-magazine/.premium/six-basic-facts-about-the-nakba-everyone-should-know/00000188-2e5d-d6e4-ab9d-eefdb0fe0000
https://archive.is/2QuxO

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-03-26/ty-article/.premium/prime-ministers-office-netanyahu-knew-that-hamas-had-diverted-4m-to-military-wing/00000195-cf86-d104-adfd-ffdf9e100000
https://archive.is/TRgNF

[Beastly Boy]

58. Does any of your sources contradich what I posted?

Or is it an attempt to deflect from my response?

I am not biting.

[Eko]

96. Seems like they did.

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

[Beastly Boy]

97. Do you ever read articles beyond headlines? I do. Most of the time.

From your source, which happens to be my source as well:

Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.

Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products. Israeli officials said these permits, which allow Gazan laborers to earn higher salaries than they would in the enclave, were a powerful tool to help preserve calm.

Toward the end of Netanyahu’s fifth government in 2021, approximately 2,000-3,000 work permits were issued to Gazans. This number climbed to 5,000 and, during the Bennett-Lapid government, rose sharply to 10,000. Since Netanyahu returned to power in January 2023, the number of work permits has soared to nearly 20,000.

--snip--

Meanwhile, Israel has allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018, in order to maintain its fragile ceasefire with the Hamas rulers of the Strip.

Other than these instances, which speak of money transferred to Hamas from places other than Israel and Gazans gainfully employed in Israel, is there anything else in the article even hinting at Israel giving money to Hamas?

I didn't think so.

[Eko]

104. Ya I read the whole thing.

And I do realize that the money came from Qatar. I also read way past that.
"Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has defended allowing Qatar to transfer millions of dollars to Hamas-run Gaza despite criticism from within his own government over the move aimed at restoring calm after months of unrest."
"The Israeli-authorised money transfer appeared to be part of talks that would see Islamist movement Hamas end months of often violent protests along the border in exchange for Israel easing its blockade of the Gaza Strip."
https://www.france24.com/en/20181111-netanyahu-defends-qatari-cash-infusion-gaza-0

So the money came from Qatar but was allowed in by Israel. They just helped facilitate the transfer.
Where does the money from UNRWA come from? Oh, UN Member States. UNRWA just helped facilitate the transfer.
So does that mean the the UN Member States finance hamas?

[Beastly Boy]

125. I congrtulate you on reading the whole thing.

You are now in the position to make a distinction between giving money to Hamas and allowing payments to Hamas by a third party.

Use your newly acquired knowledge. Don't rely on me to deconstruct every single one of your fallacious questions.

[Eko]

105. So,

Is Israel complicit in Hamas war crimes?. They have enabled their regime in Gaza for many years.

[Beastly Boy]

126. I have full confidence in you to find the fallacy imbedded in this question.

By all means, apply yourself!

[Eko]

127. Ah, well, why dont you?

If you are so sure of that shit just let us know. How exactly is it when the UN provides funds to "Gaza" and Israel provides funds to hamas then the UN stinks of shit but Israel is clean as a baby's bottom. Thats just one big amazing dichotomy isn't it? Its like you don't even listen to yourself.

[AloeVera]

103. You mean the UN agency UNRWA - the lifeline for Palestinians - that Israel destroyed?

By providing "evidence" that 9 people out of a workforce of 13,000 "could have" participated in Oct. 7th? Evidence that could not be corroborated or authenticated by an independent commission because it remained in Israel's custody? Lol.

As I said at the time, the destruction of UNRWA was the necessary first step to destroying Gaza as a homeland for Palestinians. It was a lifeline for Palestinians. I hate being right when it's something so wrong.

BTW your last sentence is an oxymoron, unless you are arguing that the UN is not supporting terrorism. Which, while true, doesn't seem to be the argument you are making. Unless of course you admit that Israel IS committing ethnic cleansing. Also true.

[Beastly Boy]

118. Must be a different UNRWA.

The UNRWA I am referring to actually admitted to employing eight known Hamas operatives out of some 450 suspects and firing them, It was a confession, and as such, a corroboration of the charges against UNRWA.

The UNRWA I am talking about then faulted Israel for not vetting their employees for them.

The UNRWA I am talking about had their funding suspended by more than a dozen countries when their scandalous conduct became undeniable.

The UNRWA I am talking about has for years been sustaining the entire Hamas terrorist infrastructure while turning a blind eye to their racket to steal humanitarian aid from intended Gazan recipients and to launder it for their military needs and wants, a racket which Hamas conspicuously lost control of with UNRWA being kicked out of Gaza.

No, I have no idea which saintly fairy tale UNRWA you are talking about.

BTW, my last sentence is an analogy between two false statements, notwithstanding your awkward attempts to make it into something it isn't. But you already knew this.

[AloeVera]

120. Yes, your UNRWA is a fantasy.

UNRWA did not "admit to employing 8 known Hamas operatives". The agency head rashly fired people based on Israel's accusations, without verification. It was wrong. He should have known that those who are eager to discredit UNRWA would quickly twist it into the accusation you yourself just made.

Most countries restored UNRWA funding when they realized it was a smear job by Israel.

There is no evidence for your other accusations. It's a rehash of Netanyahu's lies.

What I do know is that it was important for Israel to destroy UNRWA and it had been itching to do so for years. Its destruction greatly increased Palestinians' suffering and starvation - to aid in "encouraging" them to "voluntarily migrate". It also paves the way to withdraw refugee status from Palestinians. In which case they would lose their claims to right of return and their own state.

[Beastly Boy]

123. Yes, an independently confirmed fantasy widely covered in the media as if it were fact-based. Their mistale.

There is nothing rash about UNRWA firing eight confirmed Hamas operatives. It took careful examination of the evidence provided by Israel to UNRWA of twelve documented cases of known UNRWA employees participating in the October 7 atrocities, including kidnapping and stealing a dead soldier's body. The same evidence that, upon examination, prompted more than a dozen countries to withhold (not withdraw, as you suggest) funds until UNRWA took steps to formally acknowledge its fault and reform its practices, which they eventually did.

Nor was it a rash decision to hire them. The most charitable explanation for the scandal they embroiled themselves it is negligible vetting of their employees, and the most damaging would be outright complicity with the Hamas authorities.You may choose exactly where on this scale your preferences lie.

My other accusations are a rehash of media reports, none of them particularly sympathetic to Netanyahu.

And what you think you know is not of particular interest to me. The only thing that counts is verifications of what you think you know from legitimate sources that know.

[AloeVera]

144. Here you go.

The accusations surfaced in January when Israel informed UNRWA of the alleged involvement of 12 staff members in the attacks. UNRWA immediately identified and terminated the employment of 10, while two were confirmed dead.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/08/1152841

Bolding mine. Trying to be helpful.

[Beastly Boy]

146. Thank you. Very helpful indeed. Sonething that you previously called a fantasy being confirmed as fact

by your source.

'Much appreciated for the effort.

[claudette]

3. Disgusting

This is self defense? I think not. It’s murder and we are financing it

[FadedMullet]

4. Ain't that the truth? The influence of AIPAC and the other pro-Israeli lobbyists, as well as our historically....

.....deep commitment to the "underdog" Jews in the Middle East, surrounded by enemies, needs a serious rethink as they rain high tech destruction on defenseless third world people.

[claudette]

5. 👍

[Beastly Boy]

9. It looks like Trump is giving it a serious rethink.

What could go wrong, eh?

[Mosby]

32. Hezbollah mainains the largest non-state military in the WORLD.

Last edited Sat May 17, 2025, 01:33 PM - Edit history (1)

They only exist to destroy Israel and kill all its citizens.

Hamas receives somewhere between 70 and 100 million per year from Iran, which is spent on weapons and military gear, again only for the purpose of destroying Israel and killing all the Jews. Hamas also only exists to destroy Israel, they aren't the government of Gaza, they don't want to be the government of Gaza, they are not the Gazan security apparatus, they are terrorist group hell bent on the destruction of Israel, all the while comfortably ensconced in a sympathetic population, who have now suffered greatly due to their aggressive, illegal actions against Israel.

Can you name just one analogous situation? Is there any other country in the world that is surrounded by 153 MILLION people who want to destroy their neighboring country?

Pew Research Center shows that virtually every Lebanese, Syrian, Jordanian and Egyptian is antisemitic. That's a fact.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/24/middleeast/hezbollah-weapons-visuals-intl-dg

https://www.acfcs.org/unraveling-a-complex-web-a-primer-on-hamas-funding-sources-iranian-support-global-connections-and-compliance-concerns-considerations

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2008/09/17/unfavorable-views-of-jews-and-muslims-on-the-increase-in-europe/
(They bury the lede, just look)

[claudette]

33. More blah blah blah

Hezbolah is NOT Gaza or innocent Palestinians there

[Beastly Boy]

48. Hezbollah is the reason Israel needs US military aid to defend itself.

So is Hamas, the Houhtis, Islamic Jihad, Iran, and Syria.

And you are right, none of them are Gaza,. so don't conflate US military aid with it.

Blah, blah, blah indeed.

[Permanut]

79. I don't get the part where Israel is defending itself by killing women and children.

[Beastly Boy]

83. Do you get the part where Israel is defending itself against Hamas, the Houhtis, Islamic Jihad, Iran, and Syria?

That was the part that answered the post I replied to.

As far as the part you don't get, Israel is defending itself against Hamas terrorists. Hamas terrorists hide behind women and children. According to Article 28 of the 4th Geneva Convention, the presence of civilians does not immune Hamas from being targeted. Israel targets Hamas, not civilians. Hamas, not Israel, is in full control of where to hide and where to fight.

There are many serious issues that raise objections in this situation, mostly with regards to Hamas, but also with regards to Israel. They may be objectionable on political, ideological, ethical or humanitarian grounds None of them affect Israel's right to defend itself.

[DrFunkenstein]

115. I Missed The Part About Blocking Food and Supplies to Women and Children in Mass Starvation

Honestly, Israel's right to "defend" as a talking point left the building many months ago. We are talking mass atrocity. Israel does not target Hamas. They don't target at all. They bomb indiscriminately, leveling block after block of civilian residences month after month.

Even in Haaretz, there are articles literally entitled "Why Israelis Are Apathetic About the War Crimes Committed in Their Name." I'd say you sound ridiculous, but that's not quite the word for it.

[Beastly Boy]

130. My question was about what you did get, not what you missed.

Apparemtly, you have no intention to reply to what I posted.

Your purpose is to deflect, and I will not bite.

[electric_blue68]

60. I've had distain for Netanyahoo for decades...but don't forget Israel's been...

attacked by various Arab countries, and factions since it was created.

Your phrase "underdog "Jews" " is a bit troubling you me.

Jews have lived in that area for millenia as well.

[FadedMullet]

74. You're right. I should not have said Jews. I'm usually more careful in distinguishing between Israel's rabid right....

.......wing governments and the portion of it's rabid right wing electorate that keeps electing those populations.

[Beastly Boy]

8. It is warfare. In self defense.

Show me a major military conflict in urban areas where an armed belligerent did not lay down arms or abandon a war zone that had a different outcome.

[cstanleytech]

95. Why not drop in military personnel instead to raid the hospitals?

[Beastly Boy]

98. Drop them in where?

In a school where the missile launchers have been positioned?

Next to a hospital where Hamas leaders are hiding?

Into a tunnel that connects the two?

Into a refugee camp where the terrorists hide their weapons?

Has anyone you know ever attempted a stunt like that and got anything accomplished?

[cstanleytech]

112. Well there are other options than dropping them.

So, why not send ground troops in?

[Beastly Boy]

129. The questions remain: send them in where?

In a school where the missile launchers have been positioned?

Next to a hospital where Hamas leaders are hiding?

Into a tunnel that connects the two?

Into a refugee camp where the terrorists hide their weapons?

How many layers of Hamas traps and barriers, including civilian human shields, do you expect the ground troops to go through just to get to those targets?

And once again, has anyone you know ever attempted a stunt like that and got anything accomplished?

[cstanleytech]

132. Well a good place to send them might be where they hit with the missiles perhaps??

[Beastly Boy]

136. The same targets they are hitting now except doing so not with a single strike but

a prolonged military operation that elevates the volatility of the situation, redices the chances of intended outcome and increases collateral damage?

This begs the question I keep asking and getting no response to: has anyone you know ever attempted a stunt like that and got anything accomplished?

[cstanleytech]

137. Your last question is not really a good one since most of us don't know and that's why I'm asking my question.

[Beastly Boy]

139. Well, your observation is exactly the reason my question is a good one.

I am not versed in military tactics nearly well enough to take all the elements of the operation you are proposing into account, but even out of my ignorance, I can see many things that could go terribly wrong with such operation.

It may not be the answer to your question, but it raises doubts about your proposal.

[cstanleytech]

141. I'm not proposing it. I'm simply wondering why they choose air strikes rather than ground troops.

Especially if a ground assault would have a better chance at causing fewer civilian casualties.

[Beastly Boy]

143. Your wondering contains a proposition for a ground assault.

A ground assault would have a better chance at failing and leading to unintended consequences.. And likely cause more civilian casualties.

[twodogsbarking]

14. And, drum roll, supplying the weapons.

[Mossfern]

15. Hamas needs to return the hostages.

It's as simple as that.
I don't understand why so many people just don't get it.

Hamas is the cause of the strife in Gaza.

[BuddhaGirl]

17. Israel is destroying Gaza and committing

genocide. Yes Hamas deserves to be destroyed.

But Israel's level of response is unjustified and is murdering many innocents.

I don't understand why more people just don't get it.

[Mossfern]

18. So.....

How do you suppose they destroy Hamas?
You do know that they have promised many more October 7th type attacks if they prevail.
The UN is complicit in "educating" young Palestinians to hate and kill all Jews - why would any Jewish agency trust anything the UN says?

I'd love to see reasonable options.
Honestly

[electric_blue68]

68. Ummm...

The UN is complicit in "educating" young Palestinians to hate and kill all Jews

The UN is a massive organization w seceral buildings, and several major bodies [General Assembly, UN Security Council , and ?more], other smaller groups for various functions, aid, etc plus NGO's.
It's been decades but I've actually visited at least twice.

So what part of The UN us doing this?
I'm not saying some couldn't be, but you claim this, how do you know ?

[Beastly Boy]

80. It's UNRWA

Not only did they distribute (and print?) school textbooks glorifying terrorism, they employed Hamas operatives and gave them the cover of legitimacy to commit war crimes.,

[Mossfern]

94. Thanks for posting this, I was napping

Here are a few links for those who were unaware of what was happening in UNRWA schools:

https://themedialine.org/top-stories/report-on-unrwas-misuse-of-us-funds-to-incite-hate-to-be-presented-on-hill/

CONGRESSIONAL RECORD—HOUSE H5199
Congress.gov
https://www.congress.gov › crec › 2023/11/01 › C...
PDF
Nov 1, 2023 — We will never arrive at a peaceful so- lution for Israelis and Palestinians as long as Palestinian children are being taught hatred in textbooks ...

https://fpa.org/center-for-near-east-policy-unrwa-educates-palestinian-children-to-hate/

https://govextra.gov.il/unrwa/unrwa/?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=21340511647

Or.... people can google the issue for themselves if they think these reports are biased.

On edit: This is not to say that children of fanatical Ultra Orthodox Israelis are not taught hate by their communities. A pox on both their houses. It will take generations to remedy the situation. I urge people who have not yet done so, to study this history of the area and keep an open mind. It's a shame that martyrdom is celebrated by Hamas and taught to their children.

[AloeVera]

30. They wanted to but Netanyahu broke the ceasefire.

You should be asking why he did that.

Or why he sealed the fate of the hostages when he said a day or so ago in announcing the intensified slaughter that if Hamas wanted to release hostages, that's fine, but "nothing will stop the war".

The hostages were a secondary priority for him. Hamas offered to release the hostages in OCTOBER 2023! but Netanyahu wanted to continue destroying Hamas Palestinians and Gaza. For the ultimate goal of cleansing it of Palestinians and annexing Gaza.

The abhorrent, hidden motives - now in plain view - really should be obvious by now to all. Even Netanyahu doesn't bother with the mask anymore - clearly making the hostage argument moot even for Israel's defenders.

[Mossfern]

31. I could agree with what you are saying

if indeed the hostages were released. Hamas is just giving Netanyahu an excuse that wouldn't exist if they had done that.

I repeat:
I do not like Netanyau
I do not like the ultra othodox right wing in Israel (or anywhere as a matter of fact)
I do believe that Hamas acts in bad faith - there was a cease fire in existence on 10/7
Hamas does not care about innocent Palestinian civilians - they have claimed just that
Hamas is making Netanyahu more powerful in Israel

What is your solution?

[AloeVera]

35. Do we need a solution to the whole issue before we can agree that this slaughter of civilians is wrong?

I despair too.

That good people - with whom I agree on most things except this - cannot see beyond their fear of future harm to agree to stop the very real harm being committed in the present. Because religion/tribalism, ideology, dehumanization - whatever, there are many reasons, none of them good.

That on October 8th (actually starting the evening of October 7th) there were thousands of bombs dropped on Gaza and I could see the immense human suffering that lay ahead. Because I know how disproportionate Israel always is.

The ceasefire on Oct 7th? It had been broken 180 times, every time Israel or the settlers killed a Palestinian in that year leading up to Oct. 7th. Should Palestinian lives not matter too?

You don't agree with me about the hostages because Hamas did not release them unconditionally? They should have released them without demanding that Israel stop its bombardment and occupation of Gaza? In what world would that happen or be expected? I can only think that - again - it reflects a worldview in which Palestinian lives are viewed as inferior.

Hamas doesn't want to "kill all Jews" as you said elsewhere. This is a canard that is used to justify mass murder of Palestinians . Oh the bitter irony!

I could go on, but I am tired, really tired.

[Beastly Boy]

51. No. We need to free the hostages.

And face the truth about who is leading the Gazan civilians to the slaughter, for a change.

[Beastly Boy]

49. Bullshit. No one was stoping them from returning the hostages. Ever.

In fact, no one forced them to take hostages in the first place.

And this is as clear as day: as long as Hamas holds hostages, the war will not end. The minute Hamas disarms, Gazans will not starve. The minute Hamas gets out of Gaza, the killings will end.

It takes blinders a mile long not to see this.

[AloeVera]

140. Israel won't stop committing war crimes until the enemy capitulates?

Do you even hear what you are admitting to?

You are giving Israel a pass for collective punishment and crimes against humanity.

Just how long do you think people last without food and clean water? I bet you it's a lot less time than Hamas agreeing to AND doing all those things.

Bit that does not seem important in Israel's - and your - calculations. It's astonishing, frightening.

[Beastly Boy]

142. Huh? Do you even hear what YOU are admitting to?

Let me make it clear to you: the generic "enemy" you are talking about are the frigin hostage takers. Rapists, murderers, sadists.

You are literally setting their capitulation as a cut-off point to their presumed entitlement to hold on to the hostages. How much closer can one possibly get to embracing hostage taking than making their abduction conditional on anything?

I am not a fan of performative outrage, but this is the most disgusting thing I've seen on DU.

[AloeVera]

145. Willfully missing the point and putting words in my mouth to demonize me. Again.

You don't seem to care that you are in essence defending Iarael's "right" to starve and kill innocents until it "wins" the war.

That is what is disgusting. Performative outrage indeed.

I have nothing further to say to you.

[Skittles]

6. "The Holy Land"

[bluestarone]

106. YES, and the religious right (MAGA rethugs) want this same shit

Right here in our country. What could go wrong? Burn all our books, teach their shit in our schools, take medicaid away from our poor. What a great future they have in mind for our country.

[Bayard]

10. Genocide in plain sight,

And no one is stopping it, certainly not the U.S. Greedy trump plans to share in the spoils, build resorts there when all Gazans are dead or moved to Libya. Its not justifiable in any way. Israel's, "war," has been totally over the top, and disproportionate.

Flame away.

[Beastly Boy]

11. No need. The absurdity of the same old tired talking points is self-evident.

[Bayard]

62. Back at'cha!

[Beastly Boy]

69. If I had all the time in the world, I am sure I could have come up with a weaker response.

But since I have neither the time nor the compulsion to engage in childish back and forth, I concede - you take the cake!

[Bayard]

73. I'm going to tell Mom!

[PufPuf23]

78. Tired talking points and deflections fail to stop the slaughter.

Tired talking points and deflections fail to help Israel, hostages, Palestinian innocents and chance for peace and prosperity in the future.

[nowforever]

12. Religion

The greatest con ever created. Ritualistic behavior driven by fear of the unknown. Israel is, seemingly now, using Gaza as retribution for every pain they have suffered since the creation of Judaism. What a different place the World would be if the fiction of God was never created. Humanism is truly the only path worth taking.

[twodogsbarking]

13. I'm all in.

Aldous Huxley famously quoted: "It is a bit embarrassing to have been concerned with the human problem all one's life and find at the end that one has no more to offer by way of advice than 'Try to be a little kinder.'"

[kimbutgar]

28. You are so correct !

So much hate created by religion when “ God’ should mean love.

I couldn’t rec your comment more 👍👍👍

[Orrex]

16. I'm sure that this is all Hamas' fault, and they can end it whenever they want

At least, that’s how Bibi’s bloodthirsty apologists have justified his years-long campaign of deliberate civilian murder.

Maybe one of them will even show up to call me a pro-Hamas antisemite.

[Mossfern]

19. I don't know of any Bibi apologists here

and I certainly do not support him and believe he belongs in jail.
As I said further up the thread it IS the fault of Hamas.

I would be more supportive of your arguments if Hamas returned all the hostages, dead or alive.

[Orrex]

21. Maybe you can explain how murdering tens of thousands of civilians will free the hostages

The hostages aren’t a blank check to bomb Gaza and starve children, despite what Bibi and his apologists insist.

[Mossfern]

24. I didn't say that I agree with the bombings -don't put words into my mouth

What I saw on October 8th - before there was any Israeli retaliation has left me feeling hopeless.

What do YOU suggest Israel do to get the hostages back considering the promises of Hamas to continue their barbaric attacks on Israeli civilians and the mission of Hamas is to kill all Jews.
Have you forgotten that part of the issue?

It is not the intent of Israel to kill all Palestinians.
It's not like all Israelis are right wing settlers.

I would like to see good faith actions from both sides.
What has Hamas offered?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

29. What has HAMAs offered?

More death and destruction of Israel and it's citizens, more broken cease fires, more theft and terrorizing of Palestinians by using them as human shields.
Sounds about right.
If HAMAs had stayed on their side of the border, this conversation wouldn't even been happening.

[AloeVera]

70. Yes, Palestinians should just stay in their "borders".

Even though there are no "borders" because the border issue has never been settled. There is only barbed wire, high-tech fences and military guard posts keeping an impoverished and besieged, blockaded population caged in and subject to "mowing the lawn" every few years.

Even though Israel has never respected any borders when it took by force 78% of historic Palestine in 1948 and the remaining 22% in 1967 which it continues to occupy formally or de facto.

Even though Israel wants everything and leave nothing for Palestinians - as we clearly see now, hidden for so many years.

What has Israel offered? In real time, not in some imagined and made-up future used to justify the unjustifiable happening RIGHT NOW:

More death and destruction of Palestine and its people, more broken cease fires, more theft of land and resources, more terrorizing, killing, maiming, burning or Palestinians, more unbearable suffering, more destruction of the hospitals and schools, more unimaginable suffering for the wounded without medicines... on and on... until they are delivered to a dark hell-hole in Libya or Sudan, after which the priviledged and supremacist Israeli settlers will move in to live on top of children's corpses and shatttered dreams of another people.

And btw Hamas offered to work towards a lasting peace in the last ceasefire agreement. But that's not what Israel wanted so Netanyahu broke it so he can continue to terrorize and kill Palestinians until they flee like they did in 1948 and 1967.

Who would support this? Who?

[Beastly Boy]

52. Maybe you can explain how taking and holding the hostages will end civilian deaths.

[PufPuf23]

81. If one supports current Israeli activities in Gaza or the West Bank, one is a

Netanyahu apologist.

There is more truth to that than calling antiwar and anti-violence individuals pro-Hamas or antisemitic.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

20. Are you saying that there are Bibi apologists here?

That's hilarious because I've yet to see anyone here apologizing or supporting Bibi.
Maybe you can point out the "Bibi apologists" here.

[Mossfern]

25. I asked that question here not too long ago

and was tasked with finding them myself even though I said there weren't any.
I felt like I had gone down the rabbit hole and was conversing with the White Queen.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

26. Yeah, I remember that thread,

there was one particular person that wouldn't provide any links despite insisting that there were DUer's just that.

[muriel_volestrangler]

34. Obviously, any link to an apologist would get alerted on for calling them out

It's silly, and a waste of our time, to taunt people with "tell us who are the bombing apologists are" when it's just a way of hoping to get your opponents' posts hidden. You're not showing anything.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

36. I myself would never alert on such a post, although I do understand that it could be considered a call out,

I believe that one should be able to say what they want as long as it doesn't violate the very few exceptions of the 1A.
I know DU has differing standards being a privately owned website and we have to adhere to the rules.

[Beastly Boy]

56. You've got the cause and effect exactly reversed.

If there were any Netanyahu apologists on DU, calling them out would not have had any negative consequences for any alerts.

And it's silly to claim there are Netanyahu apologists on DU and not be able to call them out.

[EX500rider]

63. Not really, you don't have to call out any DU poster, just point to the thread you think it happened in..

[muriel_volestrangler]

85. No need to point to threads, beyond those with "Gaza" in the title

All DU knows that a thread about Gaza will attract Netanhayu apologists.

[EX500rider]

88. I see, so there are none?

[muriel_volestrangler]

89. No, you don't see.

Pretty much all threads with "Gaza" in the title contain Netanyahu apologists.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

110. Yep. They will have to live with the stink of genocide they supported.

Because this thing is only going to get worse. I suppose they will slink off and never admit they supported this shit.

[Orrex]

39. You're asking me to call out DUers by name in violation of the TOS

I decline to do so.

However, in broad terms, Bibi’s apologists are those who argue in favor for Bibi’s relentless campaign of civilian murder, using the same bullshit excuses that he uses, regardless of whatever claims they might make about despising him personally.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

41. I'm just as horrified by the carnage on both sides,

but the bottom line is that if HAMAs hadn't broken the cease fire on 10/7 and stayed on their side of the border, then we wouldn't even be discussing this.
HAMAs doesn't give a fuck about the residents of Gaza, they view them as fodder to be used to further turn the world against Israel, and I've gotta hand it to them, their propaganda dept. has achieved their goal beyond their wildest dreams at the expense of the citizens of Gaza.

[Orrex]

43. But that's just nonsense

By that logic, Hamas need only find some antecedent event to claim as justification for the Oct7 atrocity, round and round we go.

At what point does Israel’s response qualify as disproportionate, in your view? Are they justified in going house to house to execute every last Palestinian because someone from Hamas was reported in the area?

Hamas is a vile terrorist regime that should be wiped out to its last member.
Israel is wholly responsible for its years-long campaign of deliberate civilian murder.

These two facts are not mutually exclusive.

[questionseverything]

108. Israel already had 10s of thousands of prisoners it held in prison w/o charges

Let alone convictions

Israel hard liners are murdering people who have lived and farmed their land for centuries and bull dozing their homes

So please don’t pretend this started 10-7

[MarineCombatEngineer]

111. And don't you pretend that HAMAs invaded Israel, torturing, maiming, raping, murdering, kidnapping

innocent Israeli citizens and foreigners because of that and lest you forget, HAMAs' stated goal is the destruction of Israel and the elimination of Jews from the earth.
Take your bullshit elsewhere.

[AloeVera]

113. But you see those people aren't "hostages".

They are not murdered and raped, beaten, not allowed to return to their families, kept in the dark, and threatened with violence, tied up, starved, harassed and screamed at daily. Many returning with serious physical problems like missing limbs for example, or acute malnutrition, or mental illnesses.

Oh wait. They ARE. THOUSANDS of Palestinians in Israeli torture-prisons are suffering all of these horrific things. Without any charges even.

It's very odd that nobody talks about THEM, though it's been going on for decades. As if it's par for the course for being Palestinian - which it sadly is.

As for the settlers' violence and the ongoing dispossessions and land confiscations - nobody talks about that either.

As if everything started on October 7th or something.

[Beastly Boy]

61. You will be hard pressed to find any DUers arguing in favor of the way the Netanyahu's government conducts the war

BTW, linking to the post you consider to be apologetic in response to being called out to do so does not violate TOS. As long as you don't even believe describing it as such is a violation, as long as you don't refer to the author of the post (not the post itself) as a Netanyahu apologist.

[AloeVera]

107. Oh my God, I am so relieved!

So all the endless arguments about exactly that - the CONDUCT OF THE WAR - were just a bit of... joshing?

Well, the joke's on us, I suppose.

Next thing you know, the apologists will claim they never heard of Netanyahu. Nope, don't know him, never heard of him.

[Beastly Boy]

128. I am very happy for you. I hope you enjoyed it.

I almost feel sorry that I must take you back to the reality of the post you are responding to.

I understand why some people would prefer reading something into a text rather than actually reading the text. It is a defense mechanism, quite common, actually. As an entirely random hypothetical example, they might feel compelled to conflate "conduct of the war" with a description off Netanyahu's conduct in the war, just to misrepresent defending the former as defense of the latter.

This rather transparent sleight of hand then becomes a handy tool to build a strawman army of non-existing Netanyahu apologists who, in turn, become the object of silly snarky remarks and ridiculous speculations.

Imagine, defeating an entire army of strawmen with one post... you sure showed them!

[AloeVera]

133. I do enjoy it. You do provide endless entertainment.

This one is particularly amusing as an example of furious backpedalling after realizing an unforced error.

"Description off Netanyahu's conduct in the war"...

Not even sure what that means...

The following were your words. You wrote:
"You will be hard pressed to find any DUers arguing in favor of the way the Netanyahu's government conducts the war."

Have a nice day.

[Beastly Boy]

138. Of course you are not sure what I mean. You never were.

That is the whole point, isn't it?

When one looks at what I previously said, it is no big mystery to understand the distinction between the politics of Netanyahu's goverment conducting the war and the logistics of conducting the war that have negligible impact on their politics.

My point is pretty clear and concise. No reason to get overly melodramatic over it. It only illustrates your refusal to understand what I mean, not your doubts about the meaning.

[Hieronymus Phact]

22. Careful...

"bloodthirsty apologists have justified the years-long campaign of deliberate civilian murder."

The exact same sentence can be applied to Palestinian apologists as well.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

23. LOL.

Love how you turned that right back on them.

[Orrex]

40. Let's talk numbers.

Hamas is a vile terrorist organization that should be wiped out to its last member. I’d hope that we’d set a higher standard for the US ally to whom we funnel tens of billions of dollars.

Also, how many Israeli civilians has Palestine killed, exactly? How many Palestinian civilians has Israel killed?

Your post is hardly the flex that you imagine it to be.

[EX500rider]

64. "How many Palestinian civilians has Israel killed?"

Since Hamas does the counting & includes their dead in the number nobody knows do they?

But is it in their best interest to inflate the civilian casualties? And are they trustworthy? lol

And I find it interesting how many will laugh off any IDF claims but totally believe the Hamas press releases.

[electric_blue68]

71. Isn't part of the problem that some of the IDF has done rogue things..

They serm to want to be seen as holding a higher standard in combat, but does that always happen?
Yeah, it's War; sh-t happens. But still.

[Orrex]

93. Right, right.

The IDF's figures are unimpeachable truth, while Palestinian figures must be discarded entirely because Bibi might not have murdered quite as many thousands of children as the initial counts suggest.

I don't laugh of the IDF's claims; they're no doubt as reliable as our own country's claims regarding the dead women and children in Fallujah, for instance.

I find it interesting that so many can utterly dismiss the mass murder of Palestinian civilians. Are those people as quick to dismiss the unjustifiable slaughter of 1,200 innocent Israelis on October 7?

Why must we consider Palestinian lives disposable, while Israeli lives must be avenged 50 times over?

[Hieronymus Phact]

66. People's lives aren't numbers

Numbers games do not justify butchering civilians.
When should we start your numbers game? the Hebron massacre, or the Arab revolt? Does it count if Lebanese militants massacre Israeli civilians for the cause of Palestinians? What about Jews who get massacred by Arabs in other parts of the world for the cause? Mumbai? Charlie hedbo? Argentina? All those civilians killed in the name of Palestinians do they count? What about poor old Leon Klinghoffer? Does he count?

What about terrorizing hundreds of thousands of civilians with rocket fire? they only kill a few people once in a while. Keeps the numbers down so it's ok? (I've actually seen that argument in this board)

No, I don't tally numbers to justify slaughter of innocents.
There's no numbers game to be played.

[AloeVera]

84. But slaughter of innocents is always wrong, right?

No cause justifies it, and no mumber is too small is what you seem to be saying.

Couldn't agree more.

So you must condemn Israel's slaughter of innocents in Gaza. Am I correct?

[Hieronymus Phact]

102. I never implied otherwise

[Orrex]

90. The only people who ever make that "people aren't numbers" argument

Are the ones who advocate for the side that's done more killing, often by an order of magnitude.

It's intellectually dishonest, at best.

Or, if you truly believe it, then it's morally reprehensible.

[Hieronymus Phact]

109. You never answered

Wow, your argument IS people are just numbers?
Since your morality hinges on the numbers,
When do we start counting from?
Which victims get to be included?
The scoreboard of morality needs detailed answers or i won't know who it's ok to kill.
and the one who kills fewer is i guess allowed to do it?
but if they kill more than the other guys, then they're not?

How about both sides stop killing innocent people?
I prefer to advocate for that,
I'm not sure what it is you're calling for.

[Orrex]

117. I'm betting that you aren't really that naive.

Wow, your argument IS people are just numbers?
Since your morality hinges on the numbers,
When do we start counting from?

First off, that's a straw man; my morality does not hinge on the numbers, but the numbers are indeed a factor in the current situation. If they were not, why would Israel invoke the 1,200 innocent people slaughtered on Oct7? Or the number of hostages held by the vile terrorist regime Hamas? Are you inclined to scold Israel for treating people as numbers?

Your blather about a scoreboard is useless unless (at the very least) the two "teams" are of equal might, are equally well-funded, and are equally able to escape the conflict. Since none of those is the case re: Gaza, your analogy can be abandoned.

Now I propose a hypothetical. It's not a false dilemma, because I'm not pretending that the two listed choices are the only options in reality, but for purpose of illustration I limit the hypothetical to two:

1. House A is on fire, and five people about whom you know nothing else are trapped inside.
2. House B is on fire, and fifty people about whom you know nothing else are trapped inside.
3. You can save the people in only one of the two houses; the others will perish horribly.

Both outcomes are horrible, but are you unable to distinguish between them? And if you are able to distinguish, then how do you do it, if not based on numbers?
How do you decide based on numbers, when you seem to insist that such a thing is morally unacceptable?


Here's another hypothetical:
1. Murderer A kills one person.
2. Murderer B kills 50 people.

Both are horrible, but are you unable to distinguish between them? And if you are able to distinguish, then how do you do it, if not based on numbers?


Here's another hypothetical:
1. Group A lobs low-accuracy, limited-range rockets more or less blindly into sections of Area B, occasionally killing innocent civilians.
2. Group B routinely bombs Area A with advanced, high-powered, high-precision munitions dropped or fired into carefully chosen sections of Area A, routinely killing dozens of innocent civilians.

Both situations are horrible, but are you unable to distinguish between them? And if you are able to distinguish, then how do you do it, if not based on numbers?

How about both sides stop killing innocent people?

Well no shit. But Bibi's apologists defend with passion his ongoing murder of innocents, while no one here is defending Hamas for doing so (in much smaller numbers, incidentally). Or, if they are defending Hamas in this regard, please PM me a link to the thread in question so that I can call out their disgusting bullshit.

[Hieronymus Phact]

131. I told you: not playing your numbers games

You still never answered: when do we start the count and who gets to be included as victims?
You can keep your little scorecard anyway, it's just a recipe for more killing to "even the score" and I'm not contributing to that.
I don't care what excuses netanyahu or anyone uses, I don't play that game for either side.

[Beastly Boy]

67. That's a preposterous comparison.

You know full well that Israel excels in protecting their civilians against enemy fire. Hamas, on the other hand, purposely exposes Gazan civilians to enemy fire.

Since 2001, Palestinian militants have launched tens of thousands[1][2][3][4] of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip as part of the continuing Israeli–Palestinian conflict. The attacks, widely condemned for targeting civilians, have been described as terrorism by the United Nations, the European Union, and Israeli officials, and are defined as war crimes by human rights groups Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

Now use your imagination: tens of thousands of missiles implies at least 20,000. If a minimum of 20,000 missiles targeting unprotected civilians reached their targets in densely populated civilian centers, let's assume a ridculously low number of killed civilians at 3 for each missile. That's a MINIMUM of 60,000 killed by missiles fired from Gaza alone. Add to it over 1000 of civilians murdered on Oct. 7, and you should get just how ridiculous your apples to pork bellies bean counting is.

[JohnSJ]

27. While our illustrious press is concerned about Biden, the international news

organizations are focused on current events:

https://www.bbc.com/

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd7geg3lvz1o

What a contrast.

[AloeVera]

37. That would be good news indeed if Netanyahu hadn't already said:

"Nothing will stop this war". Not even the hostages' release, he said.

Do you now believe those of us who said the primary goal from the beginning was not the hostages' release but the destruction and depopulation of Gaza for Israel to annex it? Is it clearer now?

[Frasier Balzov]

42. Releasing the hostages and/or their remains couldn't hurt.

It's pretty obvious that continuing to hold them isn't moderating the bombardment.

[Orrex]

44. Right. But all along, that's been the claim.

Every time Bibi murders a few hundred children, a chorus of apologists rise up to blame it on Hamas for not releasing the hostages.

It can’t be both ways; if releasing the hostages won’t stop the war, then the war can no longer be blamed on Hamas, vile terrorist regime though it be.

[Frasier Balzov]

50. If shaming Israel's cruelty is Hamas's objective

then wouldn't seeing Israel continue to wage war post-hostages serve that purpose?

Wouldn't it rally the pity, which is what is needed to make this stop? Rally the pity to rally the shame.

Furthermore, all of Gazan society looks complicit in holding hostages because how can it go on so long without everyone's participation or acquiescence?

Take the hostage excuse away. The humanitarian appeal simply fails without this step, and the suffering too self-inflicted to rally the pity.

[Orrex]

54. That's a lot of words to say "Palestinian children deserve to die en masse"

Based on you reasoning, Hamas’ attacks on Israeli civilians are justified because Israeli civilians harbor—and in many cases serve as—members of the IDF.

For Bibi’s apologists, Israel’s every atrocity can be justified and easily overlooked, but tens of thousands of Palestinian children are wholly responsible for the US-funded Israeli missiles that kill them.

[Frasier Balzov]

57. Islam asks us.

Why even have children if you're not willing to offer them up as a sacrifice to a lost cause?

[Orrex]

59. All religious justifications are bullshit, no exceptions.

[AloeVera]

45. I wish they would.

It would show some humanity even though Palestinians are shown none. If they were smart, they would do that.

At least some lives would be saved. But Bibi would not stop.

[Richard D]

46. What will stop this war . . .

. . . is the release of the hostages, and the total defeat of Hamas. To make a comparison, had WWII ended before the Nazis were utterly and totally defeated, they would have done exactly what Hamas will do, regroup, rearm, and attack again (and again . . . ).

The only possibility of peace in the Middle East--and this is something other countries in the Middle East have recognized and are working towards--is the destruction into nonexistence of all aspects of Islamic Jihad and Islamism.

Why don't people see that? I just don't understand. It's tantamount to people forcing a treaty with the Nazis because babies were being killed in the bombings of Nazi Germany.

[Beastly Boy]

72. Call me suspicious, but methinks your quote is fake.

If it is in quotation marks, that must mean you are quoting from a source you are familiar with, no?

Can you name your source?

Of course you can't. But let me give you one that quotes Netanyahu accurately:

In comments released by his office Tuesday from a visit to wounded soldiers the previous day, Netanyahu said Israeli forces were just days away from a promised escalation of force and would enter Gaza “with great strength to complete the mission. … It means destroying Hamas.”

Any ceasefire deal reached would be temporary, the prime minister said. If Hamas were to say they would release more hostages, “we’ll take them, and then we’ll go in. But there will be no way we will stop the war,” Netanyahu said. “We can make a ceasefire for a certain period of time, but we’re going to the end.”

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/netanyahu-says-no-way-israel-ends-gaza-war-until-hamas-is-defeated

Quite a difference between what he said and what you said he said, no?

[AloeVera]

92. No. There isn't. N/T

[Beastly Boy]

99. Seriously?

Last edited Sat May 17, 2025, 08:58 PM - Edit history (1)

No difference between what you put in quotation marks and what Netanyahu is quoted of saying?

For one, there are quite a few less letters between your quotation marks. Also, the word "nothing", which you have in quotes as if Netanyahu said it, is completely missing from the article I cited.

The only similarity I can detect between the quote you attribute to Netanyahu and what is attributed to him in the article is "the war", which makes up a third of your fake quote and less than 10% of that in the article.

But other than that, no. There isn't.

I will bet you a genuine seven dollar bill that your quote is fake. Are you game?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

134. She's being quite transparent in defending HAMAs and vilifying Israel.

I'm no longer interacting with her on this issue.

[LudwigPastorius]

53. "Operation Gideon's Chariots"

Does this mean that Benny is only going to send in 300 troops to take what's left of Gaza?

Curious name, because it seems like his massive overkill is the exact opposite of the message of the story of Gideon and the Midianites.

[FadedMullet]

75. Yes, indeed. Netanyahu doesn't have to "trust in God's power" because he has 1000 pound bombs and fighter jets.

[AloeVera]

77. With 2000 pound bombs, who even needs God anymore?

[muriel_volestrangler]

87. The odd thing is that in the early Bible, the only people with chariots are the baddies

The Egyptians, or the people that the Judges (such as Gideon) fought against. Maybe Netanyahu is suggesting that Israel has been too lenient, and needs to use the strongest weapons possible to really wipe out the country's targets?

[electric_blue68]

65. I don't follow Israel/Palestinians/Arabs issues That closely but I have been off & on for decades. This comment from...

if Netanyahu hadn't already said:

"Nothing will stop this war". Not even the hostages' release, he said.

Well, that's disturbing!

They bombed Gaza, and sent some IDF troops in after the Oct 7 raids, rapes, murders, kidnapping etc to get the hostages back.
That was supposed to be the whole point of it, right?
Doesn't what he now has said contradict that?

[Beastly Boy]

76. That's not what he said. I noted it earlier.

Here's what he said, in context:

In comments released by his office Tuesday from a visit to wounded soldiers the previous day, Netanyahu said Israeli forces were just days away from a promised escalation of force and would enter Gaza “with great strength to complete the mission. … It means destroying Hamas.”

Any ceasefire deal reached would be temporary, the prime minister said. If Hamas were to say they would release more hostages, “we’ll take them, and then we’ll go in. But there will be no way we will stop the war,” Netanyahu said. “We can make a ceasefire for a certain period of time, but we’re going to the end.”

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/netanyahu-says-no-way-israel-ends-gaza-war-until-hamas-is-defeated

Having the hostages back is the goal. Making sure this never happens again is THE goal.

[LudwigPastorius]

119. "Making sure this never happens again is THE goal."

So, why is he going about it in a way that is creating more Hamas recruits?

By ignoring the mitigation of civilian deaths, he is ensuring a steady supply of previously-nonradicalized Palestinians who will now make it their lives' mission to seek revenge.

[Beastly Boy]

135. You may be confusing cause and effect.

Creating new terrorists begins with radicalization, not the actual response to terrorism.

Hamas is a radical Islamist movement bent on destroying Israel. This is the starting point. To end terrorism, you have to eliminate that starting point. If this doesn't happen, no amount of good will wasted on these radicals will put a stop to hostage taking.

Without disarming Hamas and kicking them out of Gaza, there will be no Gaza free of radicalized zealots.I am open to any suggestion to how this may be accomplished by means other than urban warfare.

[AloeVera]

82. The hostages and Oct 7 provided the pretext to achieve hidden goals.

That were not so nice, like taking all of Gaza and the West Bank to create Greater Israel. Leaving nothing for Palestinians.

When you have to hide your goals for fear of condemnation, it helps to have a good pretext that allows you to play on your victimhood while victimizing others.

The hostages were sacrificed for the "greater good".

[Beastly Boy]

86. Yeah, blame the victims.

It is an attack on Israel, the murdering, the rapes, the torturing and the taking of hostages that provided the pretext to the war. No need to concoct conspiracy theories around it. Nothing hidden about it.

What kind of stubborn denial of reality does it take to remain blind to such in your face self-evident connection for so long?

[AloeVera]

91. Lol. I've been wondering the same about your side!

"What kind of stubborn denial of reality does it take to remain blind to such in your face self-evident connection for so long?"

The hidden goal behind the obvious and stated goals was always the ethnic cleansing of Gaza.

[Beastly Boy]

100. Just to bring a glaring oxymoron in your statement to your attention:

If it's hidden, it's not obvious.

And if the 'hidden" contradicts the obvious, it's just a conspiracy theory.

Kind of obvious, no?

[AloeVera]

101. You misread or something.

"Obviously" there was the PR/propaganda messaging for public consumption and the hidden goal of ethnic cleansing. When something ugly that was hidden becomes obvious and undeniable, it can no longer be brushed aside as a conspiracy theory. It's just an ugly truth.

[Beastly Boy]

114. Or something.

Maybe you mis-wrote something. But I clearly remember that you faulted the hostages for providing a pretext for Netanyahu to start a war. Surely you didn't mean that the hostages made themselves available to Hamas so Hetanyahu can start a war. Perhaps you should have said that the terrorists, by the virtue of taking hostages, provided that pretext. That would have been more accurate, but not entirely. Because the terrorists also invaded a sovereign state, murdered, raped and tortures a thousand of Israelis, all before the hostages were in the position to provide pretext for anything to anyone.

And that is not pretext, you must correct yourself, that's casus belli, a legitimate reason to declare war, sans any hidden goals. And it's not hostages who created it, it's the de facto rulers of Gaza who did, pardon my Latin.

Unlike your adamant insistence on some hidden plot, there is nothing hidden about it. It's all out in the open. Nothing to speculate about, and "obviously" that was no PR. The murderers themselves gleefully recorded their crimes and plastered the recordings all over social media. By no sane definition does this contain any hidden plot. So I am at a complete loss why this rather well documented atrocity made you wonder about denying reality on anyone's part but your own.

You either accept this reality or you don't. If you don't, any further speculations you may volunteer lose their grounds in reality.

[AloeVera]

116. I faulted the hostages?

Are you actually saying that I faulted the hostages for providing a pretext? Or that I denied the reality of October 7th?

I CLEARLY stated that October 7th AND the hostages provided a pretext to achieve hidden, ugly goals that could not be stated out in the open.

But I will spell it out for you since you seem confused about what I said: the hostage-TAKING and the EVENTS OF October 7th provided the pretext.

Note to myself: Clear communication is important - especially when dealing with those who would willfully misinterpret.

[Beastly Boy]

121. Ummm... yeah!

What did you think you were doing when you posted "The hostages and Oct 7 provided the pretext to achieve hidden goals."?

You spelled it out pretty clearly: the hostages (along with October 7, whatever the hell you think it means) provided pretext. Yeah, that was pretty CLEARLY stated, i am afraid. Did you think this could be mistaken for praising them?

How can one possibly conflate "The hostages" with "Hostahe-taking"?

But you get credit for walking back the hostages providing pretext nonsense. Now, the only thing remaining is to state AS CLEARLY as you can apply yourself the events of October 7 and what makes them a pretext rather a legitimate cause to declare war.

BTW, a useful note to yourself. Keep it handy and refer to it often before you are about to post.

[AloeVera]

122. I'm sorry about your reading comprehension.

I truly am.

[Beastly Boy]

124. I am almost tempted to apologize.

It is my reading comprehension that enhances my proficiency in detecting bullshit. Not an ideal customer for purveyors of bovine scatology.

Sorry to disappoint.