As missiles strike Ukraine, Israel won't sell its vaunted air defense

[orangecrush]

Source: Washington Post


EUROPE
As missiles strike Ukraine, Israel won’t sell its vaunted air defense

By Steve Hendrix
October 12, 2022 at 8:47 a.m. EDT


JERUSALEM — Moscow’s deadly air assault on Ukrainian cities has ramped up pressure on Western nations to rush air defense systems to the embattled country, but it is still unlikely to receive one of the world’s most effective tools against incoming projectiles.



Israel’s Defense and Foreign ministries and the prime minister’s office uniformly declined to comment Wednesday on long-standing requests from Ukraine and its supporters for it to give, sell or loan Ukraine the system, including calls made since Monday’s barrage.


“Israel has great experience with air defense and Iron Dome, and we need exactly the same system in our city,” Kyiv Mayor Vitali Klitschko said in an interview Tuesday, a day after six residents were killed in the strikes. “We have been talking with them a long time about it. Those discussions have not been successful.”

Iron Dome uses radar-directed interceptors to blow hostile projectiles from the sky. Israel depends on it to shield civilians from rockets fired by militants in the Gaza Strip, with striking success. The system took down more than 97 percent of 470 rockets fired by Islamic Jihad forces in Gaza during a three-day escalation in August, according to the Israeli military.

Read more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/10/12/ukraine-russia-israel-iron-dome/

[BootinUp]

1. wth

[orangecrush]

2. The header said

"In deference to Russia"

WTAF

??????

Screenshot -


[url=https://ibb.co/w7qDMh0][img][/img][/url]

[LudwigPastorius]

16. There is a large population of Russian Jews in Israel.

...many who, no doubt, aren't keen on supporting Ukraine over their former homeland.

[Grins]

82. Then send them back to Russia so they can enlist. NM

[lark]

41. I have said it 1000 times, Israel is not our friend.

They have 100% health care, paid for by the US, while we have shit. Stop giving them stuff - right now and stop selling it as well. They want to cozy up to Russia, betting on them against us. When someone shows you who they are, believe them.

Israel is not our friend and is taking advantage of our relationship and giving ZERO back, in fact we got a slap in the face. The warmongers there make me sick and now they are helping fascism.

[Dysfunctional]

48. Countries are not friends with other countries.

Countries have allies, enemies, or are neutral to other countries.

[lark]

66. It can also have pretend allies.

That is what Israel is.

[lark]

73. WE give them a shit ton of money every year.

It's enough to pay for the health care of all Israelis. Stop sending them $$, they are Russian allies now.

[Mosby]

76. They just sold an anti drone system to Ukraine via poland.

They aren't Russian allies.

[democratic2021]

72. c'est la vie

[maxsolomon]

3. Israel guards this tech zealously.

They also have maintained links to Russia - they're not about to give up any "acceptable intermediary" status they may hold with Putin.

I'm not convinced Iron Dome would work as well with cruise missiles and suicide drones as it does with the primitive missiles Hezbollah cobbles together.

[former9thward]

24. Hezbollah is supplied missiles by Iran.

They are not cobbled together.

[machoneman]

43. Ah, but they are unguided missiles. Old tech. Cruise missiles and others used by the Russkies are...

guided.

[maxsolomon]

47. Sorry, didn't mean to undersell Hezbollah's threat

or Iran's technological achievements. It was flippant; I should know better on DU.

[AZLD4Candidate]

4. History lesson (not excusing, but explaining). The Cossacks were one of the worst

perpetrators of pogroms against Jews in Czarist Russia. During WW2, Ukrainians willingly handed over Jews to the Nazis for extermination.

For a lot of Jews, those wounds are still fresh.

Again, not excusing, just explaining. I know that Russia now is a greater threat to the world, but old wounds die hard.

My Chinese wife still hates Japan for what happened during WW2, some 85 years after it happened.

[iemanja]

7. And the 100,000+ Jews currently in Ukraine?

It has nothing to do with the Cossacks. The article says Israel doesn't want to cross Putin because of its interests in Syria.

[AZLD4Candidate]

14. Then Israel is being cowardly. As for the 100K Jews in Ukraine

I can't explain nor can I understand.

I'm just explaining history.

[yaesu]

10. I don't know if this actually happened but grandchildren paying for mistakes

that generation did or didn't do doesn't make sense.

[AZLD4Candidate]

12. Some wounds don't die. Again, my wife blames Japan for what happened during WW2

even though the ones that did it are long dead.

I can't explain why. . .I can only explain the reasons.

[GP6971]

18. And Koreans still hate the Japanese. n/t

[OtterDave]

20. And everyone hates the British, right?

This is all sounding racist n/t

[GP6971]

21. Not really.

Welcome to DU.

One has to understand the Chinese and Korean cultures to understand the animosity against the Japanese.

[OtterDave]

22. Most nations have a beef with other nations

War has been common throughout history.

[GP6971]

23. But not necessarily for racist reasons.

A lot had to due natural resources. Japan exploited Koreas' natural resources for it's ambitions and in turn pissed of an entire nation. It defies reasoning why the animosity exists, but it is there and very active. Memories live long.

[AZLD4Candidate]

29. When your wife's great-grandmother is gang raped and left for dead in a muddy ditch

by the Japanese invaders of China before the Rape of Nanking, you can then begin to understand why certain things are still raw.

[NBachers]

33. My friend's ancient mom came to visit from China. She kept pointing out places where Japanese were

hiding.

This was in a large American city. Her mom was off her rocker, still reliving the terror of her earlier years during the Japanese occupation. The memories, in some cases, are still first-person.

[ruet]

19. You're Not Wrong But;...

I'd love to hear more of that kind'a attitude when it comes to the good'ol USA.

[AZLD4Candidate]

28. Just ask a random native American, like my former students in Arizona or my mother

I always find it funny that they, and black people, are told that need to get over the past. Just like Jews with Nazis, the Chinese with the Japanese. . .and like I was told about Jews with Ukrainians as a response to my original response to this topic.

[orangecrush]

37. Ukeaines's President is Jewish

?????

[Joinfortmill]

77. Ah, yes.

[iemanja]

5. Here are some important paragraphs from the article

Israeli officials are largely mum, and reports have variously attributed their refusal to a lack of inventory and the system’s shortcomings against cruise missiles. But most analysts say the decision is driven by a perception that Israel cannot arm Ukraine directly without shattering its strategic cooperation with Russia in Syria and other hot spots that are a top priority for Israel.

In Syria, Russian President Vladimir Putin has largely allowed Israeli warplanes a free hand in attacking Iranian-backed militants accused by Israel of moving arms to allies in Syria and Lebanon.

“It’s just fear of Putin,” said Yossi Melman, a longtime intelligence analyst and commentator who has denounced Israel’s refusal to provide Iron Dome and other material aid as “morally oblivious.”

“It’s a shame,” Melman said. “We preach to the world about humanity and right and wrong, but when it comes to our international positions, it’s only our narrowest security concerns that are considered.”

[stopdiggin]

6. not excusing - but Israel is not the only entity

that has parsed the 'amount and kind' of armament that they're willing to invest. Many countries are making (and sometimes adjusting) these calculations.

[OneCrazyDiamond]

27. +1

[XorXor]

71. That's a fair point. Even the the US hasn't provided patriot systems

Nor have I seen anything to suggest that will change in the near future. Although, I do believe they have or they will soon be being providing NASAMS medium range air defense systems

[Effete Snob]

8. They need Russia to prop up Assad

to keep the Syrians down.

[Orrex]

9. Perhaps a temporary(?) diversion of military aid from Israel to Ukraine would help

[yaesu]

11. I always figured Israel got the nifty air defense from US so maybe its

a system they cannot part with or have limited supplies. I know we supplied them with it during the first Iraq war when they were using scuds on Israel.

[James48]

15. Nope.

That was Patriot. Some success, but not all. Iron Dome is a different type of air defense system.

[womanofthehills]

56. We helped fund Iron Dome but did not build it

From Wiki-

Iron Dome (Hebrew: כִּפַּת בַּרְזֶל, romanized: Kippat Barzel) is a mobile all-weather air defense system[8] developed by Rafael Advanced Defense Systems and Israel Aerospace Industries.[7] The system is designed to intercept and destroy short-range rockets and artillery shells fired from distances of 4 kilometres (2.5 mi) to 70 kilometres (43 mi) away and whose trajectory would take them to an Israeli populated area.[9][10] From 2011 to 2021, the United States contributed a total of US$1.6 billion to the Iron Dome defense system,[11] with another US$1 billion approved by the US Congress in 2022.[12]

[James48]

13. Israel's Iron Dome would help, but it's not designed for

what Ukraine has to do.

Israel is in a touch defense position, but 97% if the missiles are coming from a section of Gaza only a few miles wide, and long, and are all traveling the same general direction. That makes it much easier to defend against. You only have to watch a 10-mile wide section of Israel to defend against becoming missiles.

Ukraine would be an order of magnitude larger areas that have to be defended. It’s going to take many, many AA systems to protect the major cities.

[orangecrush]

38. From the link...

"But Ukrainians say the network could help shield residents from Grad and other smaller rockets that have destroyed apartment buildings, shopping centers and train stations along the shifting front.


A firefighter works Monday at the site of an administrative building damaged by a Russian missile strike. (Gleb Garanich/Reuters)
“It will definitely be helpful because the Russians also send the drones, they send different kinds of rockets,” Klitschko said. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky warned Tuesday that Moscow was deploying almost 2,500 attack drones purchased from Iran."

[TomSlick]

17. Posts above start with "not defending but explaining."

There is no defense and no acceptable explanation. Israel is siding with Russia, the home of the pogrom, against the victims of international terrorism.

[former9thward]

25. home of the progrom?

The pogroms in Ukraine between 1917 and 1921 represent the largest and bloodiest anti-Jewish massacres prior to the Holocaust. The estimated number of Jews murdered in Ukraine in the aftermaths of World War I ranges from 50,000 to 200,000,1 with many more Jews suffering violence, rape,2 and loss of property. Altogether 1.6 million Jews were affected by these violent events. Although it is impossible to determine the exact number of victims of these pogroms, there is no doubt that this was the largest outbreak of anti-Jewish violence before the Shoah, the genocide during World War II in which 6 million European Jews, around two-thirds of the Jewish population of the continent, were systematically murdered by the Nazis and their collaborators.

https://books.openedition.org/obp/11018?lang=en

[StormKing]

26. Literally 100 years ago

No need for text.

[AZLD4Candidate]

30. Slavery was over 160 years ago. . .people still want reparations and deserve them.

Jews, get over it. Literally 100 years ago. So what if you were butchered. Get over it.

[SunSeeker]

32. Russia was in control of Ukraine 100 years ago.

Russia is responsible for the pogroms in Ukraine. Hence the suggestion that it is a bit curious, to say the least, for Isreal to be "deferential" to Russia.

Are you suggesting that Isreal letting Russia bomb Ukraine to bits amounts to "reparations" for the Russian-led pogroms in Ukraine?

[StormKing]

44. Putin is running a anti-Jewish genocide

Seriously. Pull your head out of your butt.

Like their support for the Trumps and the back door deals they cut with Arabic leaders that call for Israel's destruction...

...they don't believe what you think they do.

[SunSeeker]

31. Imperial Russia is where pogroms began. At the time, Ukraine was under the control of Russia.

Some basic history:

Pogroms began to occur after Imperial Russia, which previously had very few Jews, acquired territories with large Jewish populations from the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Ottoman Empire from 1772 to 1815. These territories were designated "the Pale of Settlement" by the Imperial Russian government, within which Jews were reluctantly permitted to live, and it was within them where the pogroms largely took place. The Pale of Settlement included all of modern-day Belarus, Lithuania and Moldova, much of Ukraine and east-central Poland, and small parts of Latvia and Russia. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pale_of_Settlement#:~:text=The%20Pale%20of%20Settlement%20included,now%20the%20western%20Russian%20Federation. Historians such as Edward Radzinsky suggest that many pogroms were incited by authorities and supported by the Tsarist Russian secret police (the Okhrana), even if some happened spontaneously. The perpetrators who were prosecuted usually received clemency by Tsar's decree. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogroms_in_the_Russian_Empire

A chaotic period of warfare ensued in Ukraine qafter the Russian Revolution of 1917. The Soviet–Ukrainian War (1917–1921) followed, in which the Bolshevik Red Army established control of Ukraine in late 1919. Russia then went on a killing spree in Ukraine, not just of Jews, but of millions of Ukrainian peasants. In 1932 and 1933, millions of people, mostly peasants, in Ukraine starved to death in a devastating famine, known as Holodomor. It is estimated that 6 to 8 million people died from hunger in the Soviet Union during this period, of whom 4 to 5 million were Ukrainians. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ukraine

Are you seriously blaming pogroms on Ukraine and not Russia?

[stopdiggin]

40. "are you seriously blaming ..?"

No. At the same time, are you trying to suggest that the Ukraine population was stalwart in their opposition to the actions against Jews? (if so - they would kind of stand out in that context - and within the whole of eastern Europe? or large parts of the globe?)

And in the end - I find the other explanation provided in this string to be much more plausible. That Putin provides a strategic cooperation against an arch-enemy - and that proves to be more important to the Israeli state (at this point in time).

[SunSeeker]

46. No one is disputing why Isreal is siding with Putin, they are criticizing the morality of it...

...in light of Russia's history of slaughtering Jews. No nation was "stalwart" in protecting Jews from slaughter, but Russia and Nazi Germany have the worst history of slaughtering Jews in the last 100 years.

Your attempt to claim it was Ukraine, not Imperial Russia or Stalin, who was responsible for the pogroms was just plain wrong. It is the kind of thing Putin would say, in his ceaseless propaganda against Ukraine.

[stopdiggin]

50. actually I didn't make that claim at all

(you're perhaps confusing me w/ another poster) I merely pointed out that a lot of people (in Ukraine and a host of other places) stood aside while those in power engaged in atrocities. So - not the drivers, no -- but not quite the cleanest of hands either. (and neither, as I keep trying to stress, were a whole lot of others) Does that put them on par with Germany and Russia? Clearly not. Any more than - France, for an example, would be placed in that category?

[SunSeeker]

57. The post you are defending did.

Distracting from Russia's responsibility for the pogroms by claiming "a lot of people" in Ukraine "stood aside" (the same people Stalin was slaughtering and starving to death by the millions) is pretty grotesque.

They couldn't stop getting slaughtered themselves by the Russians, but you think they could have stopped the Russians from committing pogroms on Jews. Got it.

[stopdiggin]

59. I am defending no one else's words (or posts)

other than my own. And, in those posts (each individually, and collectively) I made quite sure to emphasis that I wasn't attempting to distract from Russian responsibility. On the other hand - you seem to be bent on nothing less than a complete exoneration of Ukraine, and Ukraine society - and you're simply not going to get that here. Antisemitism, then and now, cuts way too wide a swath - and I think an honest reading of history will show that there was plenty of support for anti-Jewish measures - in the Ukraine (as well as, as I've also said repeatedly, in many other countries and parts of the world). Claiming that the Ukrainians 'had nothing to do with it' - simply doesn't wash.

[SunSeeker]

61. What did you expect the starving peasants of Ukraine to do to stop Russia's pogroms?

Before they themselves died....

[stopdiggin]

63. they weren't all peasants.

And they weren't all starving. Some of them held positions. And some of them were only too willing to collaborate with anti-Jewish measures. You know this, if you know your history as well as I think you might.

The Germans found plenty of people in Vechi France - that were only too willing to shop out their Jewish neighbors ... Same thing wasn't happening in Ukraine?

[SunSeeker]

64. What did you expect the lucky ones not literally starving to death to do to stop Stalin's pogroms?

Stalin had no qualms about killing anyone who opposed him, and did so by the millions in Ukraine. Ukraine was directly ruled by Stalin; Vichy France was not directly ruled by Hitler. France was ruled by its own French Vichy government.

On June 22, 1940, France signed an armistice with Germany, and by July 9 the French parliament had voted 569 to 80 to abandon the previous government and give Chief of State Marshal Philippe Pétain, a World War I hero, full and extraordinary powers. The Vichy government was born. Pétain blamed French Jews and communists for France's losses to Germany. He sought to right the liberal policies of the prior French government, and to that end he enacted prohibitions against divorce, abortion was made a capital offense, the press was censored, phone calls were monitored and critics of the government were imprisoned. None of that was required by Hitler. Pétain ruled with absolute power until 1942, when Germany took over the previously unoccupied “Free Zone” in southern France and began managing affairs more directly. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/vichy-government-france-world-war-ii-willingly-collaborated-nazis-180967160/

Ukraine did not have its own government which voted to adopt Stalin's authoritarian, genocidal policies. Sure, every country has anti-semites, but Ukraine during the pogroms was not comparable to Vichy France.

[TomSlick]

52. I meant that the word pogrom originated in Russia.

If you will pardon a Wikipedia quote:

A pogrom (Russian: погро́м is a violent riot incited with the aim of massacring or expelling an ethnic or religious group, particularly Jews. The term entered the English language from Russian to describe 19th- and 20th-century attacks on Jews in the Russian Empire (mostly within the Pale of Settlement). Similar attacks against Jews which also occurred at other times and places retrospectively became known as pogroms.

In any event, Israel is siding with Russia, a country that has a long history of antisemitism and is now engaged in international terrorism.

[former9thward]

53. Israel is not siding with Russia.

Israel providing Ukraine with intelligence about Iranian drones

Israel is providing Ukraine with basic intelligence about the Iranian drones Russia has begun to use to attack Ukrainian cities, U.S. newspaper the New York Times reported on Oct. 12, with reference to a senior Ukrainian official.

It noted that Ukraine has asked Israel for air defense systems as well, given the successes of that country’s Iron Dome system, as well as the longer-range Barak 8.

At the same time, according to the Ukrainian official, Israel is providing Ukraine with basic intelligence about Iranian drones, while a private Israeli firm is providing Ukraine with satellite imagery of Russian troop positions.

https://english.nv.ua/nation/israel-providing-ukraine-with-intelligence-about-iranian-drones-50276552.html

The U.S. has not provided everything Ukraine requested. If fact in 2014 when Russia attacked Crimea the U.S. denied Ukraine's request for weapons. Does this mean the U.S. is siding with Russia? I think not. Every nation has to look at the big picture and its national interests.

[TomSlick]

54. We should agree to disagree.

Israel has the means to limit the deaths of Ukrainian civilians and chooses to not do so. There is no legal duty to protect others from certain death but there is such a moral duty for those with the capacity. Israel chooses to allow Russia to bomb children's playgrounds.

Israel expects the US to fulfill its moral obligation to help Israel defend itself against neighbors with malevolent intent. I hope the US continues to do the right thing. Israel should also do the right thing.

[SheltieLover]

34. Every country should do all they can to help Ukraine!

Russia has never been anything but a terrorist state. Hence the formation of NATO.

How are the grands? They walking yet?

[JohnSJ]

35. My thoughts are with the tinderbox that is the Middle East, this wouldn't be publicly

announced if it was, and the article seems to say that Israel is not confirming this either.

Regardless, the US has more than sufficient resources to construct the Iron dome defense system for Ukraine, and I have no doubt it is being done.

This article is definitely misleading, because the US can and most likely is working with Ukraine to put in such a system in Ukraine.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/yes-us-army-getting-its-own-iron-dome-defense-system-166267

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/09/14/us-army-iron-dome-weapons-ukraine-511787

[Behind the Aegis]

36. C'mon on now. You know why this article was written.

It is as it has ALWAYS been.

[orangecrush]

39. I don't know why

Or understand what you mean.

Please elaborate, if you don't mind.

[JohnSJ]

42. I speak for myself, but there is and has been a pattern to use Israel and Jews as a scape goat.

It is naive for anyone to believe that the U.S. is not involved in this situation, and if they wanted Israel to be involved directly in the Ukraine situation, and setup the Iron Dome for them, the U.S. would put appropriate pressure on Israel, and they would do it.

The fact is, as I have stated in my post above, the U.S. has been working to setup the Iron Dome in Ukraine, and they don't need Israel to be involved.

I also find it mildly interesting that there was very little coverage about the Israel/Lebanon border agreement, which incidently was mediated by the U.S.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/10/11/israel-lebanon-agree-on-draft-deal-on-maritime-borders

[stopdiggin]

62. I don't think the Israel steps quite so nimbly

to the desires of the U.S. as you might portray. In fact - I think evidence suggests that there's been a steadily widening gap in influence.

Agree with a good deal of the rest of what you have to say here. Including the fact that Israel is being 'singled out' (hardly the only country in the world that is making independent calculations, based on individual state interests) Seems to be a bit of a 'hit' piece.

[JohnSJ]

65. Ok. Most important thing from my perspective is that we keep NATO together on this, and I suspect

with winter around the corner, and energy crucial to Europe, that is not going to be easy

[orangecrush]

70. I understand completely

And I think of Israel as a good friend.

I hope that either they, or our defensepeopke here in the U.S. can provide the needed defense: systems in Ukraine, quickly.

[MOMFUDSKI]

45. Currently, the repubs have turned on the Jews

and are in love w/putin. So as of right now, the Jews must feel they have to side w/putin. It will be interesting to see how the US handles this. EVERYONE has a family story that would make one want to hate a particular race/country. Can't we all just get along?

[Slammer]

49. calculations

The situation in Ukraine still doesn't change Israel's calculus: Russia allows thousands of Jewish people to escape to Israel every year. If Israel takes a side, not only will Russia stop them from escaping but the remaining Jews might face (additional) persecution or deliberate drafting into the military.

And Russia might pressure it's former USSR allies to stop emigration to Israel as well.

Ukraine, as from the beginning of the war, has a huge roster of nations from which it can purchase, or be given, military equipment.

The Jews inside of Russia basically have one nation which puts those Jewish people's interests first.

[Disaffected]

51. I'm not sure I understand that.

Do Jews in Russia (or anyone else for that matter) actually have to "escape". IOWs are they not eligible for visas or some-such?

[SunSeeker]

60. With up to 400,000 Jewish residents, Ukraine is home to the world's fifth-largest Jewish community.

Around 20,500 Jews out of an estimated 165,000 Russian Jews have moved to Israel since March. That leaves only 144,500 Jews in Russia. Seems to me if Israel wants to save the most Jews, including President Zelensky, it would give the Iron Dome defense system to Ukraine. Nobody is bombing the Jews in Russia.

Ukraine can't get the Iron Dome from any other country. It is a specialized system designed by Israel (using hundreds of millions of dollars from the US for the project) specifically to intercept and destroy missiles fired at populated areas. Russia is increasingly reliant on missiles to menace Ukraine’s civilian population, as the Russian army falls apart. The Iron Dome is particularly needed at this stage of the war. https://thehill.com/policy/defense/3681452-putins-attacks-expose-need-for-iron-dome-in-ukraine-former-nato-commander/

"We must take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim." -Elie Wiesel

[EX500rider]

55. Israel gets free rein by Russia to attack Iranian attempts to move heavy weapons to the...

...Syrian/Israeli border, if Russia turns on them in Syria they will have Iranian missiles and rockets fired over the border and killing their civilians, they are between a rock and a hard place IMO.

[SunSeeker]

58. How can Russia stop Israel from attacking Iran's heavy weapons at the Syrian/Israeli border?

You think Putin doesn't have his hands full in Ukraine?

[EX500rider]

74. Russia still has bases in Syria with long range air defenses.

Which could complicate Israel's bomb strikes on Iranian weapons convoys & warehouses in Syria.

[SunSeeker]

78. Do you think Russia would shoot missiles into Israel and start another war?

[EX500rider]

80. No, the missiles would be fired at Israeli warplanes in Syrian airspace attacking Iranian targets

[SunSeeker]

81. Russians shooting down Israeli planes is not starting a war?

Besides, Pootie Poot needs all the missiles he can get his hands on to slaughter and terrorize Ukrainian civilians.

[BigDemVoter]

68. I thought the missile defense system came from the USA?

I remember during the Iraq War, Saddam Hussein ordered missiles fired at Israel. I clearly remember that the US supplied Israel with their system at the time? Did the Israelis develop another one of their own?
Unfortunately, I simply cannot remember the name of the US system. . .

[Angleae]

69. US system was the Patriot, Iron Dome is an Israeli invention (from 2011).

[SunSeeker]

79. But US gave Israel hundreds of millions of dollars to help develop it. nt