What if Trump were to be found genuinely mentally unstable?

[Henry Krinkle]

By that I mean clinically diagnosed by doctors and/or mental health professionals?

I know some will claim 'what makes you think he isn't currently mentally unstable?'

I'm thinking more like a complete nervous breakdown, partial or full blown Alzheimers, odd, eccentric Howard Hughs type behavior, etc.

Impeachment only allows for "Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other High crimes and Misdemeanors".

Is there any mechanism or procedure to have him removed from office?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. Yes, there is:

Section 4 of the 25th Amendment says: “Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.”

It is being talked about already. https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2017/01/25/maybe-trump-isnt-lying/?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-e%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.2f0ec0627e6c#comments

[icymist]

5. Pence has to agree to it!

He seems to be in Trump's pocket!

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

8. Yes, but he'd get to be president (which would suck for us, but probably no more than Trump).

Wouldn't that be sufficient motivation?

[icymist]

19. We'll see what happens.

I hear he's as dumb as a bag of hammers (to quote a friend from Indiana) so, I don't know.

[politicat]

34. Pence is playing the game.

Read Pence as an Aaron Burr figure -- politics are dirty, but he'll play along. He's lying in wait. He can't pull the 25th trick before a cabinet is in place.

Note how fast confirmations are going.

[jmowreader]

43. I doubt Pence would do it before 1/21/2019

According to the Constitution, if Pence overthrows Trump before Trump's term is half over, he can stand for election once. If he waits until January 21, 2019, which is just past the halfway mark, he can stand for election twice.

So...we're stuck with Trump for at least two more years. Sorry.

[Takket]

2. section 4 of the 25th amendment

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

[Glamrock]

3. Constition

Article 25 section 4

[Initech]

4. 25th amendment

Section 4
Share

Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.
https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/United_States_of_America_1992

[bench scientist]

11. Sorry I didn't see your post Initech. I double posted the same info.

best
bench

[dixiegrrrrl]

31. Cakewalk.....

No way Congress is not looking at this, if not already planning it.
They may be waiting for the strawberry moment, but if we can think it, they surely have.

[winetourdriver01]

6. Article 4

Yes, actually there is, and it's been discussed quite a bit in other posts. Basically, if the Speaker of the House, the VP, and the Majority Leader of the Senate agree that the President cannot perform his duties, for whatever reason, he can be removed and the VP takes his place.

[dogman]

7. He would be replaced by another.

Find a GOPer who is not mentally unstable.

[asiliveandbreathe]

9. Rethugs have their man..they are having a feeding frenzy - and this -

"All we need is someone who can 'handle a pen' ... Pick a Republican with enough working digits to handle a pen to become president of the United States." - Grover Norquist

[bench scientist]

10. The 25th Amendment to US Constitution allows for for removal due to incapacity.

Amend. XXV
Section 4.

"Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office."


Unlikely given the Republican House and Senate.

[Rosco T.]

12. IF? n/t

[spanone]

13. you need more proof?

[LisiFFXV]

14. Facepalm.....

He is NOT mentally ill. I wish people would stop saying that. That implies that he is not intentionally malicious and absolves him of responsibility for his actions.

Just because a political ideology is fascist/right wing/extreme/whatever you want to call it does not mean the person is "mentally unstable". It simply means they are fascists. Not mentally ill. And they are completely and totally responsible for their actions when things go to hell.

[Henry Krinkle]

21. That's why I posted "I know some will claim 'what makes you think he isn't...

currently mentally unstable".

I agree with your comment, observation. His ego, stubbornness and policies aren't part of the equation here;
it's the bizarre statements and behavior that make me question his mental health status. Even his staff and
advisors must be asking themselves 'something just ain't right with this guy'.

[VOX]

24. Great handle, just don't apply for Secret Service work!

Welcome to DU, Travis-- I mean, Henry.

[Henry Krinkle]

25. "I think I'd be very good at it".

"I'm very observant".

[VOX]

22. So Adolf Hitler was a shining example of mental health?

One of the hallmarks of the classic psychopath is his ability to charm and sway others. And all the while functioning just fine. One can be seriously delusional and still function, interact, etc. Trump shows every sign of being delusional, AND that doesn't absolve him from all the horrible things he does and says. (See: Charles Manson.)

Welcome to DU.

[LisiFFXV]

30. Yes, he was perfectly mentally healthy

he coldly and calculatedly created a political ideology to enable him to gain power and murder those he used as scapegoats to cover his and others failures. He was entirely responsible for his actions and knew exactly what he was doing. Your attempt to take away from his responsibility with "mental illness" is a slap in the face to all those who died in the holocaust.

And BTW... do yourself a favor and read some history. Hitler was not a "charmer" (and I'm kind of worried you find him charming, but I digress). Prior to his rise to power, we was essentially a street thug. He and his gang of followers engaged in roughing people up on the streets regularly, and he got to do some prison time. Not exactly the life of a charmer. He was essentially an ex-con thug. When Germany was at it's low point, he took to giving angry speeches to capitalize on what he saw was a political opportunity to gain power. Meanwhile, in the background, his gang of thugs made sure to... encourage... the right people to stay out of his way.

[trueblue2007]

33. HOW do you know Rump is not mentally unstable. Have you examined him? Are you a medical Dr ???

DO NOT MAKE BLANKET STATEMENTS LIKE THAT when you can not back up your statement.

And you really should watch what you say being a new member and all.

[EL34x4]

36. What does being a new member have to do with anything?

Just because someone signed up recently don't mean they were born yesterday.

I happen to agree entirely with what that individual posted. Trump is not mentally ill. He knows exactly what he is doing.

If you think the comment is inappropriate, alert on the post and let the jury deal with it. That's how things work around here. You seem to have been here long enough to know that.

[trueblue2007]

40. DONT YOU DARE CALL ME A DANGEROUS PERSON. I am intelligent, thoughtful and I am a loyal Dem

I have NEVER MINIMIZED the threat of Donald Trump. He is Dangerous, Evil and Cunning. HE CAN ALSO BE MENTALLY ILL.

STOP calling people names !!! And NEVER minimize the intelligence of our members ---- never minimize the intelligence OF WOMEN.

[LisiFFXV]

46. Even if he is mentally ill, I will never acknowledge it

Someone who is mentally ill has diminished capacity. In a court of law, that means they may not be fully culpable (blameworthy) or liable (responsible) for their actions. Therefore, by saying he is mentally ill, you are minimizing his blameworthiness and responsibility for the acts that he is taking to destroy our country.

This makes what you are doing, in turn, dangerous to our country. Why? Because when he commits criminal acts, and, if he is ever taken to court/impeached/etc, he may be able to get off the hook due to being "mentally ill". What you are doing is only enabling him to get away with his actions further down the line. If this label has legs and takes off, and most people one day consider him mentally ill, he may escape being held accountable for his actions. (Ever hear of the "insanity defense"?)

My question to you, therefore, is WHY are you taking away from his responsibility and blameworthiness for his actions? By saying he is mentally ill, you are also saying that he is not fully responsible for his actions. Are you trying to protect him? You certainly are protesting a lot... as Shakespeare might say, methinks thou dost protest too much....

He is NOT mentally ill. He is a cold, calculating, fascist. He is fully aware of what he is doing and is fully responsible and blameworthy for his actions when this whole situation explodes on him.

[politicat]

35. Technically, a personality disorder is considered an illness,

The same way that we treat an inborn metabolic disorder as an illness. Yes, that's normal for that person, but their normal is not population normal. A personality disorder is a fundamental flaw in that specific person's operating system, and it can't be fixed or modulated.

I am not making a distance diagnosis. The publicly observed behavior is consistent with the behaviors common to the Cluster B personality disorders. There is no known treatment or therapy for such disorders. Nor does a personality disorder in any way excuse a person from culpability for antisocial behavior. Persons in Cluster B are legally sane per the M'Naghten rule and its descendant variations. It's not a pass; persons in Cluster B are perfectly capable of living highly transactional but otherwise functional pro-social lives. When they don't do so, it is by choice.

The only reason to correlate the observed behavior to a known diagnostic code is to facilitate how we react to his/their behavior. There are interpersonal and social techniques that absolutely do not work with Cluster B people. They can't be reasoned with, their shame mechanisms are wildly miscalibrated, they don't fully consider us real, so cannot see why we object to dishonesty or manipulation. There are other techniques that are highly effective when dealing with B people, and fail utterly with everyone else. They're suckers for flattery, the more blatant, the better. They're often con-artists, but they're highly susceptible to getting conned themselves. They're walking Dunning-Krueger examples.

[smirkymonkey]

42. I think you can be both. I think he is and always was a horrible person.

I am not a professional nor willing to offer a professional diagnosis, but I do believe he is not right in the head. I don't believe he is in touch with reality. I don't know what you would call it, but the man is not mentally healthy AND he is a horrible person as well.

There are a number of DSM labels you could throw at him, I am sure a professional could make at least one of them stick hard.

[Thor_MN]

15. They would bring Alternative Medicine to bear to prove he was as right as rain.

Anything's possible when Alternative Facts are in play.

[Henry Krinkle]

16. Ok, thanks all. That answers that question.

[madokie]

17. As long as the 'CONs have control of the house and senate

any hopes of removing tRump will not go anywhere

Its at the Ballot box we fight this battle if we plan to win that is

[kairos12]

18. Never happen. The Reich Wing won't let a doctor get within 100 miles of him.

He is propped up signing dummy for the Reich Wing.

[Revanchist]

20. It depends on how well they could hid it

After all, they let Regan remain in office.

[Judi Lynn]

38. Who knows if he was ever competent, ever, while he was there?

All they needed was a figurehead their idiot base adored, someone who encouraged racism, xenophobia, and hatred of Democrats, and they were able to do everything else.

[randr]

23. What if?

It is evident and apparently those toadies around him are in denial waiting for whatever bones he throws them.

[guillaumeb]

26. Ronald Reagan was suffering from Alzheimers.

Lunacy or other significant mental issues are no disqualification for the GOP.

[Stinky The Clown]

27. And who/what might be making this examination happen? Wishful thoughts?

[onenote]

39. +1

[doc03]

28. Unless they carry him out in straight-jacket we are stuck with him for at least 4 years nt

[TNLib]

29. They'll find Trump, gibbering on the White House lawn

The press will have a field day, then it's pretty much President Pence.

I'm starting to think this is likely to happen quicker than even impeachment.

Mentally ill people, become worse once they are under stress. He seems to be unraveling quick, despite his family and staffers efforts.

[cstanleytech]

32. Its been discussed a number of times that yes, there is a procedure however the Republicans will not

invoke it as long as Trump delivers on things like cutting taxes to the bone for the wealthy while gutting every single social program from medicare to social security but otherwise they dont give a damn what he says as long as he signs what he is told to sign by them and when he is told to sign it.
If he refuses they will invoke it (and they have alot that points to him being mentally unstable thus unfit to be president) and then pop their backup plan of Pence into the office and Pence would sell his soul just to have the position of President so they know he will do what he told and Trump knows that which is the other reason Trump will obey them.

Edit: This is the other reason I think there needs to be a cap on the number of political seats a single party can have in both Houses as it leads to tyranny and corruption like what we are seeing the Republicans descend into.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

41. 25-4 his ass.

Of course, he'd challenge it probably, setting up a long struggle with Congress (assuming they'd want him gone), but it would remove him for the moment.

[MountCleaners]

44. It wouldn't be unprecedented

He would be far from the first fantastically wealthy person to go bonkers.

[dalton99a]

45. He'll be around a while. The House will not impeach him, and his cabinet will not stand up to him

much less certify him insane.