My aunt and I are taking a flight soon.

[MIButterfly]

I expressed concern about the air traffic controllers and how they've already missed one paycheck and she said "well they make $104,000 a year." What does that have to do with anything? First of all, how do you know how much they make and what expenses they have? Even people with that kind of income can still live month-to-month. I just said "Bigger money, bigger bills." Missing a paycheck can be a hardship for anybody. You don't know their situation. They could have student loan debt; they could have outstanding medical bills; they could be the sole support of aging parents; they could have a deadbeat ex-partner who refuses to pay child support; they could be a divorced parent who has to pay child support; there are any number of reasons why missing a paycheck would not be no big deal. Not to mention that if you do the work, you get paid. This isn't a game. The stupid Republicans are messing with peoples' livelihoods. I imagine those bastards aren't missing any paychecks.

Do I have to mention what political party my aunt supports? The one my uncle tells her to, of course.

[samnsara]

1. my sister in law has sworn off flying after a liftime...

..it wasnt the traffic controllers..its the turbulence.

fly safe..

[MIButterfly]

2. Thanks, samnsara.

I HATE to fly, always have. I hate the entire experience, from the minute I step foot into the airport. But it's the fastest way to get anywhere so I have to force myself to grin and bear it.

[barbtries]

33. try to remember

that statistically, flying is the safest way to travel.

[Happy Hoosier]

12. She's super sensitive to it?

I guess not flying is an option so long as you limit where you’ll go to.

[ColoringFool]

22. Same With Me.

Decades of summers to Europe. Stopped flying completely in 1999, the Year of JFK Jr. No connection, just....I'd been flying more and more white-knuckled.

Luckily, my husband and I discovered the delights of driving to Maine!

[Lonestarblue]

3. If only we had Europe's rail network!

One of the stupidest decisions ever made, at the behest of the auto industry, was to give away the land with railroads and rip up the tracks.

[MIButterfly]

6. I grew up in Detroit and I guess because cars were built there, they expected everyone to have a car

so the city had very little public transportation. They still do. A number of decades ago, they built the People Mover, which is an elevated train that travels in circles for about a mile or two downtown. City buses aren't much better.

[FakeNoose]

17. Back in the 1920's everyone wanted a car, but it was a luxury

By the 1950's cars became an affordable lifestyle, by the 60's they were pretty much an essential expense.
Now we're trapped because there's no other workable option, outside of greater Manhattan NYC.

[MIButterfly]

21. I think Chicago has a great public transit system.

They have the el and they have buses that run every 15 minutes all over the city. They have commuter trains that go to and from the suburbs. When I used to visit my dad in Chicago, I would park my car and we'd use public transportation for the entire time I was there. Even now, when I visit Chicago, I hop on the el which takes me wherever I want to go. That's the way you do public transportation. No cars needed.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

8. Keep in mind that Europe is a lot smaller than the U. S.

It was much easier to build good train service than when you have to cover the kinds of distances in this country.

[barbtries]

11. Is China?

it's not the size, it's the political will to get it done.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

42. Did China start with overwhelming private car ownership?

[peacebuzzard]

53. I think its China that has perfected the bullet train.

I have never been to China although I admire many aspects of that nation and its population. They seem to have perfected how to move the masses of people which kind of resembles our huge metro areas in this country. Last time I rode in the NYC subway system it still needed upgrades. Other cities in South America seem to have a more modern system although inadequate at rush hour. But that is probably true anywhere there is rush hour.
Some locations in South America are planning the bullet train to connect the huge metro areas. Still waiting on news for that one.
Europe is far ahead in the planning stage; but as someone said on this thread the US is a huge sprawling territory. Far exceeding Europe.
I know Canada has some lines that connect airport to city centers.
Where I live, in deep red country no one is going to give up their big ol' trucks for a train ride.
Just a rambling and a lament for better transportation ....instead of the car industry and the dreams it spoon feeds to the masses.

I just drive my little economical 15 year old compact. It is still in one piece. I don't want these big car prices consuming my monthly budget.

Back to FAA and no pay for them. That is a scary thought plaguing my thoughts lately too. The controllers need to be paid. It's the only transportation system we have connecting this country and to the world.

[Shipwack]

20. Not really an excuse...

I agree in theory we can’t have as dense and convenient rail system as Europe… a train from every city going to every city. But there’s no reason not to have three or for medium rail networks. One for the northeast corridor, one for lower California and Vegas, etc.* Plus a couple of long distance routes.

Not to mention, being a large spread out country isn’t stopping China…

*just examples off the top of my head; I’m sure there are better routes…

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

43. Actually, it is the excuse.

And the essential difference between China and the US is the difference between them in private car ownership.

The reasons for the destruction of public transportation in this country are complicated, and the support of public transportation elsewhere is also complicated, but in the end it comes down to supporting or not supporting public transportation.

I'm a huge supporter of public transportation. My first seven years in DC were without a car, and the only reason I finally bought one was that I'd decided to take classes at my local community college, and I simply could not take the bus to school and back home and then again to the airport in the same day. Otherwise, I was happy without a car.

[spooky3]

28. In land mass Europe is slightly larger than the US

https://www.iroamly.com/usa-travel/is-the-us-bigger-than-europe.html#:~:text=Although%20the%20U.S.%20is%20a,about%2010.2%20million%20square%20kilometers.

In population, Europe is about double. It’s probably easier to justify the investment when you are carrying many more people, but I agree the primary factor is political will and priorities.

[DFW]

51. It WAS easier to build good train service. But they have let it go bad

Ever greater control ceded to incompetent bureaucrats has been an absolute disaster, and Germany has led the way. What used to be a reliable network of public transportation has become the joke of Europe.

Just yesterday, I had to travel from my office near Utrecht, NL back to my home near Düsseldorf. The trains station in my town, by the way has been closed for most of the year, and through service on the route has been out for almost two years. So, I have to get a taxi to the airport train station, and go either north or south from there. The track from Oberhausen over to Arnhem (first major Dutch train station) is being worked on (again), and so, instead of the 1 hour 50 minute trip from Düsseldorf to Utrecht, I had to use a southerly route (involving getting up at 4:45 instead of 6:00), which adds an hour to the trip. That was "only" 20 minutes late, so I was there just before 10:00 AM, where I am usually there at 9:00. But then, there was the trip back.

The trip back was supposed to leave Utrecht at 4:26 PM and get in to the Düsseldorf airport station at 7:30 PM. But--it was a GERMAN train. We didn't even make it out of the Netherlands until after 7:30 PM. Then, due to "traffic complications," once in Germany, the train couldn't stop at the border station, because all routes north (i.e. Düsseldorf) were blocked. So, the train had to go all the way down to Köln, where I changed for a local train up to Düsseldorf and the Düsseldorf airport. that is usually a 40 minute trip. But after 15 minutes, the engineer said he had to conduct a technical review of the locomotive, so we would sit there for ten minutes in the middle of nowhere. i FINALLY made it to my station at around 22:30 (10:30 PM). Three hours late for a trip that was supposed to take just under three hours. A two hour trip took six hours. You'd think they took scheduling lessons from American Airlines.

THAT is what train travel in Central Europe has become. No more the image of Switzerland. More like Albania--AND, flying is, in many cases, cheaper !!

[peacebuzzard]

54. Abysmal. I didn't know the system was deteriorating.

And from Germany? I always thought the technical issues were always top notch.
Thanks for the insight.
Sorry about your commutes.

[DFW]

63. It has been going downhill here for a while. A self-perpetuating bureaucracy has no interest in efficiency.

It wasn't like this fifteen years ago. They had their off days, but not off decades. Yesterday was especially bad, but not the worst. Since I've been back over here (got back from South America Sep. 9th), I have had a train-delay-free day maybe twice, and I am in a different country almost every day for my job, usually by train.

The town I live in has a commuter train line running through it. It goes from Köln to Düsseldorf to Essen. My town is halfway between Düsseldorf and Essen. Despite the short distance, the line itself has been under construction for two years, and through service has not existed for at least that long. The station itself has been completely out of commission since September. A tiny coffee and pasty kiosk is still open, and susvives due to some bus traffic that was instituted to alleviate the train absence. But the buses take twice as long as the trains did, due to traffic jams brought on by--you guessed it, the lack of train service. My wife has spent much time looking after her mom up in northern Germany, so I often have to call a taxi if I'm alone. At least my employer picks that up. Geriatric care is not too good, either, and I have been shelling out €3000 a month for her care for two years now. (No, everything is NOT "free" here, don't believe the lies). At least I can deduct that from my German taxes. But the day care is usually handled by Polish agencies that bring over supposedly "qualified caregivers" who are most definitely NOT qualified. In the case of my mom-in-law, we get sent the "qualifications" in advance of the women who came over. They changed every month. The form asked them to check off their fluency in German (rudimentary, intermediate or fluent). They always checked off "intermediate," but when I met them and they heard I spoke a few words of Polish, they abandoned all pretense of knowing any German at all (they didn't) and spoke to me and my wife in Polish. The older ones understood some Russian, since they were required to learn it during the Socialist era. But neither my wife nor her mom speaks Russian or Polish, and the "help" spent most of their time smoking (outside--my wife's mom is deathly allergic to arsenic), talking to their friends back home in Poland, and eliminating the reserves of alcohol in the food cellar that had been there since my mom's dad died, almost 30 years ago.

The train misery here has been causing me to rethink my plan not to retire before the age of 80. My job is still fun, and I still find it intellectually stimulating to be speaking to the people I work with in their own languages in their own countries, and it's a different one every day. The outfit I work for is very liberal with their travel vs. time put in ratio, and if it looks like I'm going to be in (as an example) Paris from 10:30 AM to 6:00 PM, and I have stuff to do in Brussels the next day, they gave me the green light to cut the trip home (usually 5 hours) to the 80 minutes (if I'm lucky) it takes the hi-speed train takes up to Brussels, and stay in my "usual" hotel in Brussels, which is 3 metro stops from the train station. It's a "gotta boycott" hotel chain, but in this hotel, the staff knows me by now, and they always leave me fruit or chocolate or both in my room, and always comp me to the (pretty fabulous) breakfast buffet without adding it to my bill. Wednesday morning, a local friend came over for coffee, saw the breakfast buffet, and helped himself. The staff saw who he was with (i.e. me) and turned a blind eye to his freeloading. I offered to add his breakfast to my bill, and they wouldn't hear of it. The staff is a mixture of Filipinos, Latin Americans, Eastern Europeans, Arabs and sub-saharan Africans The concièrge is on of the rare Belgians on staff. I know almost all of them, and speak almost everyone's language (no Arabic or whatever-it-is that they speak in Cameroun, but those guys speak either Italian or French). I have nothing but the highest praise for every one of them. A new guy from Sweden joined the staff a couple of weeks ago, and I freaked him out by suddenly speaking perfect Swedish to him while the other staff laughed as his jaw dropped (they knew I spoke Swedish, but hadn't told him). Every so often, I write a letter of glowing praise to the hotel chain's main office back in the USA, and the head office passes it on the management in Belgium. Since 99% of the time, people only write to complain, the Brussels employees love it, and therefore, me. A little kindness goes a long way in some circles, and I certainly think the least I can do is reciprocate. The German trains get no such letters from me, needless to say. Since the German trains DO have kind a miles program, and I have enough miles with them for a free trip (if they ever offer such a thing) from Düsseldorf to the dark side of the moon, I get a partial refund as a compensation on occasion. They way things are going, I had better leave on deposit the bank accounts of my next of kin, in case I run into a delay that exceeds my life expectancy.

After work in Brussels, I then take the train home (usually). It's sometimes 3 hours, sometimes 5 or six if the German train that I usually book is defective, and the Private "Eurostar" train is sold out, which it usually is on the day of travel.

Any country that leaves vital services up to bureaucrats who couldn't care less if things work or not will find itself in the situation Germany is now. Bureaucrats love appearances they can put before the press. France put pressure on the surrounding countries to reduce the limit for non-reportable cash transactions. In Germany, it used to be €15,000 before you had to fill out a form. My wife and I both hate credit cards, so we prefer to pay in cash. Now, it's down to €2000 (€3000 in the Netherlands). Italy was down to €1000 until they were drowning in paperwork, and raised it back up to €3000 again. But it is all for show. It was supposedly to combat "money laundering," but a friend from the BKA (German version of the FBI) told me what BS that was. It was all for show so that the finance authorities never had to confront the real money launderers. They shoot back (imagine how bold the ICE goons would be if that were the case with the people they harass). He said that the drug money-laundering cartels just set up fictitious pizza parlors, taxi companies and video game parlors. None of them have any clients at all, but they dutifully each bring bundles of €450,000 euros in cash every week to the bank. It's all in €5, €10, €20 and €50 bills, fully declared, efficiently wrapped up and correctly counted down to the last €5 bill. "Business is great!" No one ever investigates, and no one ever doubts their word as to the money's origin. On the other hand, if some guy wants to pay €2500 for a gold chain for him mom for her birthday, and pays for it in five €500 bills, he is suspected on money laundering, and could end up explaining himself to the finance authorities for the next week. I've seen that happen, although it was a Krugerrand instead of a gold chain.

Anyway, we have much crap to put up with here, and it's not getting better. It has not been "top notch" for a very long time now. What is still good is that we still have a farmers market three times a week in the town square (been doing that for the last 8 centuries or so), and one of them brings a portable oven. The bread here in Germany was already not too shabby, so we have the freshest bread anywhere. There have to be some perks SOMEwhere after all, if I am to put up with this weather. Well, that and having a wife who is not only good-natured, a world class beauty but also a gourmet chef--there have to be a few consolation prizes somewhere in the equation.

[peacebuzzard]

67. sounds like five star Germany has devolved to the norms of the rest of the world....

omg I am disappointed, I have always thought the best of everything happened there. I love the german style bread they make at a restaurant I frequent when in South America. It beats anything I have savored in other places. My German friend called it (sorry about misspelling) something like Brot Rustical (rustic bread?) It wasn't made in Germany but was a German style recipe for bread made in South America by a top notch baker. I live for great bread I think.
When traveling I prefer cash myself. I had an overcharge on my credit card from a taxi driver in Lisbon when I was there for a trip with no plans to return any time soon. I was surprised my own US based bank rep made my life difficult when I reported the error of the taxi fare. I was overcharged 96 US dollars The fare was 4. Since then, I vowed to only use cash unless certain I would return to that business or service in the future. They finally reconciled maybe 6 weeks later after I wrote 5 or 6 messages; spoke to 5 or 6 reps and so on. It took the right person on the opposite end to realize where I was, where the overcharge occurred and no, I had no way to contact this taxi driver. It took a month of explaining before anyone said they would contact the charging bank's issuing card. I wasted so much time on that overcharge. In addition I have heard of so many coworkers and others ripped off at the ATMs in South America due to some kind of card reader hidden in the vicinity or in the ATMs. Whole paychecks disappear while on a trip if a card is used where there are hackers with some sort of reader system.

Decades ago I rode the city connector trains in London and Paris but they were crowded, and standing room only. Those European trains were very much like the subway in Manhattan/ Jersey which are definitely a push shove find a spot to hang on experience. It is always rush hour in NY/NJ.

The only train I have had the deep pleasure of riding in is the Road Runner in New Mexico. Many residents complained because they had just improved the highway between Albuquerque and Santa Fe. But the NM road runner is a thing of immense beauty. You can leave your car behind and go from the Albuquerque train station to the Santa Fe downtown rail station, all the while admiring desert scenes. It really makes for a pleasant trip. I have never seen it too crowded at all. Always a seat or several to choose from. The drive on the other hand is for professionals only. You have to climb the altitude to Santa Fe which I think is close to 7K. Albuquerque surprisingly is 5K. The drive is curvy, the road is new so people think they can beat a bullet train with their shiny car. The Road Runner is not a bullet train and it makes multiple stops in native settlements along the way.
Commuter and transaction Life in the Americas sounds like life in Germany at this point. Maybe the Azores or Finland, Norway or Sweden might be the place to go.

[DFW]

68. I've never been to the Azores and don't speak much Portuguese

My wife and plan to check it out some day--if we live that long! Finland is OK, but a little morose and the language would take a lifetime to learn. Except for Estonian (which is really no more than a dialect of Finnish), it's not like anything. Cool to visit, but I wouldn't be comfortable living there. I speak Swedish, so I could live there, but they love their bureaucracy as much as the Germans do. Not sure I'd want to trade one for the other. Norway is rolling in wealth from its North Sea oil, and the language is practically the same as Swedish. Last time I was there, I just spoke Swedish, they spoke Norwegian back, and no one missed a beat. But my wife knows no one there, and doesn't speak any Scandinavian language (Finnish is not one, just lives in the vicinity). She understands much Dutch, and we have many friends there, so if we were to move, that could be a possibility. But Dutch bureaucracy is not much better than the one in Germany. If we were to move and stay in Europe, it would probably be to Switzerland It's less exciting or intellectually stimulating, but most of the country speaks a Germanic language, and the people in that part of Switzerland all learn "high German (standard Germany version)" in school. I can handle the "Schwyzerdüütsch" versions spoken in Zürich and Basel, although the versions spoken out in the hinterlands baffle even the people in Zürich and Basel.

The fact is that much of the world is following our example of taking something good, and turning it into something bad, and with no real justification for doing so. I remember a joke told when I was in high school (I think Zachary Taylor was president at the time).

At a small offshoot of the Nile in Egypt, a dog was about to cross the small river when a scorpion showed up and asked if he could hitch a ride on the dog's back. The dog said he was scared to do so, in case the scorpion should sting him half way across, and then he'd drown. The scorpion replied that there was no reason for him to do that, since if he did, the scorpion would drown as well.

The dog thought about it, and realized the scorpion was right--the scorpion would drown as well. So he agreed.

Halfway across the river, the scorpion stung the dog, and as his nerves began to fail, he asked the scorpion, "why did you do that? Now we'll both die." The scorpion just shrugged and said, "it's the Middle East."

[peacebuzzard]

70. Its been many decades since I have been to the Azores

but from what I read it is becoming a retirement mecca. Mainland Portugal is as well. It is bucolic, slow paced and relaxing. That was my impression even in Lisbon.
The sun is never too hot in the Azores and kind of windy; it is a collection of islands in the middle of the Atlantic. Cod fish dinners are a unique experience; so many ways to apply culinary arts to cod. Beaches are a solitary experience, wide and long with waves from deep, dark waters. Lots of fishermen and no hawking vendors. Some of these statements are recollections from long ago and are verified by some descriptions I read in current articles.

I enjoyed Lisbon and have co workers who have purchased homes along the Portuguese coast in smaller towns. They have never complained about their life in Portugal. On the contrary they mention how relaxed and easy going daily life is. I still want to go back and explore more.
There is even one world renown tiny town by the name of Nazare' where every year top notch surfers compete in the Giant Wave contest. Porto is another town I have heard about and would like to visit.
I am certain the climate there for me, would be so much easier to deal with than harsh and cold winters. I dread winter.
I have found the Portuguese do their best to help if they feel a language barrier. Most information can also be obtained in English. One striking thing that always amazes me about this little country is there is a kind, helpful and patient population residing there.

[DFW]

71. Porto is the one city there I actually DO know to some degree

I have been going to a meeting there for the last few years. Two guy from my Dutch office have been doing it for a while, and they recommended it to me. Even my wife has come a couple of times, and she NEVER comes with my on working trips except to NYC, where one of our daughters lives, and Berlin, where we met.

Porto is built at almost a 45° angle up the side of a steep mountain. I only recommend it if you are used to climbing steep hills on a daily basis. It's a very pretty town, but MAN is it exhausting to walk up and down there. If you're looking to lose some weight, spend three weeks in Porto and never take public transportation. That should get you into shape fast (only with permission from your cardiologist!). Last time, I didn't even see much of the town, as my Dutch guys booked late, and we had to stay out in Matosinhos, a suburb known for its fancy (and VERY good) restaurants. My plane was late this year, and my Dutch guys went out to eat before I got there. My hotel recommended a small place nearby, and so I set out to find it. The area was almost deserted, but I finally found it, little more than a hole in the wall. I hoped the menu would be at least in Spanish in addition to Portuguese. I breathed a sigh of relief when I walked in the door. From the owner's appearance, he was definitely not a native of Portugal, and his Spanish with a Venezuelan accent confirmed that I'd have no problem communicating at all! I can read a lot of Portuguese, but the pronunciation is nothing like Spanish, and I have trouble following the spoken language. I had an easier time following the Brazilians.

By the way, Porto is no sleepy unknown town nowadays. The airport has a couple of nonstops a week from and to Düsseldorf, and last spring, I saw it even now has daily nonstops to Boston!

[peacebuzzard]

73. I think that is one of my dream towns to visit. Maybe the only one.

I hope that hole in the wall place had some great food.
I love places like that.
One thing about Portugal is I have never felt stressed there or felt like I might be robbed or assaulted in any way. I feel that way often everywhere else I go.
Here in the US I check and double check doors to both car and home. Even in my own home!
I used to not feel that way at home when I had my big dogs; but since I travel so much it was always a big problem with the rotation of pet sitters.

[spooky3]

61. Sorry to hear this, and sorry for you. In the 90s train travel

in Europe was a delight.

[DFW]

64. You got that right!!

Trains did indeed run on time (or close to it). Whether up and down the Rhein, over to Berlin, over to NL or Belgium, or down to Paris of Switzerland. You could count on getting to where you were going according to schedule. Plus, you could even dine in the dining cars!

When we had road trips together (more frequent back then) the first guy from my Dutch office (a rare retirement--he is 79) and I used to have a freshly cooked turkey steak in herb butter with fresh roasted potatoes and onions. In the 1990s, you could actually dine in the dining car (imagine!). AND we got to where we were going on time. These days, the "dining" cars have pre-frozen meals that get stuck in micro-waves and, if you're lucky, come close to having a taste to them. IF the electricity for the micro-wave oven is running, and IF the dining car is manned, that is. You can't always count on one or the other, and seldom on both. Plus, if the whateveritis in the plastic bag can be served, it's still a fifty-fifty bet that it has more taste to it than the left sleeve of my sweater.

[Pacifist Patriot]

4. I have four air travel trips coming up from November 05 - January 24. I am NOT looking forward to it.

I've been a nervous flier for decades and now have something weird going on with my balance and spatial awareness. Sudden movement generates an over-reaction that includes the physiological symptoms associated with panic attacks. Turbulence wrecks me!!! I warn the flight attendants that they will see tears from me. I can't help it. And these days it doesn't seem to be whether or not you'll hit turbulence in a flight, but how much and how often.

Back to your post though. I completely agree with all your points. I also think she might need to be reminded that $104K today was less than $50K just 30 years ago. Housing and education costs have risen way more than that!

[FakeNoose]

18. I was having occasional dizziness and imbalance like you describe

One possibility is the the inner ear is clogged. Imbalance can happen because of a buildup of earwax.

I know it sounds crazy but many older folks can have this experience. See your regular doctor, a GP or an eye-ear-nose & throat specialist to have it checked out. Often a simple cleaning of years of wax buildup can solve the problem.

[miyazaki]

34. It's why I use motion sickness patches.

Started using them after developing chronic sinus issues. Very helpful.

[Pacifist Patriot]

49. Hmmm.... I'll bring that up with my ENT.

I don't get motion sickness in terms of the queasiness, but can see how that might help.

[barbtries]

35. good advice.

I went through an entire stroke work up and it turned out to be vertigo. Still happens from time to time, but I have exercises and it clears up almost immediately, thankfully.

[Pacifist Patriot]

50. Vertigo is awful!

I have bouts of it, fortunately less often than a few years ago when it hit hard. I have a pre-surgical consult in January for a nasolabial cyst that made its presence known in spectacular fashion back in mid-September. I'm really curious if this little bugger is the root of all my problems.

[Pacifist Patriot]

48. I have so many specialists my phone contacts skew to D for Doctor.

I do have wax buildup that has to be cleared out professionally from time to time, but that's not it. I was recently diagnosed with a nasolabial cyst that is scheduled to be removed in January if I can make it that long without it blowing up on me again. I was hospitalized for it in September and back on antibiotics again to hopefully get me through some international travel coming up. I'm wondering if that might be the culprit. Guess we'll find out post-surgery!

[Borogove]

5. I have no intention of flying for at least three more years. Unless it's a one-way ticket out of the country.

[erronis]

7. I agree. Then I thought about those "rendition" airplane rides. All expenses paid.

[barbtries]

10. that's not an option in my world.

living across the country from some of the most loved humans in my life and all.

[barbtries]

9. When I told my son that TSA agents are not getting paid,

he didn't believe me. Then he took a flight and asked one of them.

he thinks i believe shit that isn't true. he did not apologize when he admitted that the person confirmed what I said.

my own son. and this guy is NOT a magat. he's just convinced that it's better to spread love and not pay too much attention to the facts on the ground. he does not understand my engagement in politics (as if it hasn't gone so far past politics by now); he thinks it keeps me from being happy.

the whole context of how the conversation started was whether he'd come out here for Thanksgiving. He said no, and I said I'm not looking forward to flying at all while personnel is not being paid. I travel to CA from NC regularly to work with him. I don't wanna go right now. He got pretty nasty.

I think i'm just venting at this point because he owes me an apology and I ain't gonna get it. sorry about that

[Bernardo de La Paz]

14. Don't know about you, but I'm happy even while loathing and despising tRump

Sorry about friction with your son.

When I was in the US, I despised Bush and yet I was happy.
In Canada, I despised Prime Minister Harper and yet I was happy.

It's very possible to be happy while being upset about the state of politics. Hate is hot, consuming, toxic, and leads to unhappiness. Loathing and despising are cold and don't interfere with happiness.

[barbtries]

16. thanks

I am reasonably happy, but I do feel grief, despair, sadness frequently over the destruction of democracy in my country and the brutality and atrocities going on. I cry a lot, but that's who I am. After I cry I feel better for having done it.

However it's not an option for me to just sing kambaya and "be happy." I'm old. It matters more than anything else to be sure that the generations coming up behind me have a chance at freedom during their lifetimes.

But I definitely do the "me" time and check out, spend time with loved ones, work, etc. I have a therapist and he's my touchstone, assuring me that I am not going insane or spiraling into a funk so deep I'll never find my way out of it.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

19. Grief, despair, & sadness I share with you, at times, but they pass before long & I become optimistic again

Especially the despair and grief.

My sadness lingers in the background, a distant expanse of dark clouds, rarely forefront. I sigh a lot and that helps. A sigh and then a move on to something that moves forward.

My thought Is that I can't directly control tRump, dictators, maga, or RepubliConners. So I pick up something I can control, especially something I can do for myself, and do that. Or some diversion / entertainment.

[Hope22]

25. I'm sorry you had to endure that.

There are times when I ask myself who my sons mother is!🙏🏼💗

[barbtries]

32. I know who my ex-DIL's mother is

and steer clear! the saddest part of that is she could find her own son kidnapped by ICE. for whatever reason the paperwork never got done.

same is true for my own brother, sadly.

My son is liberal, but he's also suspicious of "both sides" in a big way. He'll be 50 this year but still seems to think we can wish our way to a better world. I wish he was right.

ETA you may have noticed that the fact you were talking about yourself flew directly over my head!

[RainCaster]

13. We flew Tuesday, will again next week

So far, so good. We'll see how well this holds up. If we make it out safely, we'll be stuck in England. I could think of worse places to be stuck.

[barbtries]

36. how was it at the airports?

I flew from CA to NC on the first or second day of the shutdown and RDU (raleigh durham NC) had every automatic walkway and escalator closed on one side. I didn't think it was mechanical. The reason I don't want to fly is because people need to eat, they need to pay rent. Air traffic controllers make good money but TSA agents do not. I can't blame a single one if they go find a different job that will actually pay them.

it feels like playing with fire. When the shutdown first started I thought this will be the thing that gets republicans to reopen the government, now I'm afraid they're happy to never reopen.

[RainCaster]

66. Mostly empty

Far fewer people than a year ago. Airports for this trip include SEA, OGG & KOA. Next week will be SEA & LHR.

[barbtries]

69. my last trip was to LAX

and I came back to Durham maybe one day after the shutdown started. The last 2 trips to LA, I've never seen Terminal 2 so crowded - not necessarily inside the airport, but the traffic.

[3Hotdogs]

15. We make $110,000. Fortunately, it is SS and defined

benefit pension. But we would be up shit’s creek if the money stopped- AND our mortgage is paid off.

[maunagirl]

45. That $8300 a month!

Medical bills?

[3Hotdogs]

56. Take off income tax.

Then, since we have a budget ...

Property tax per quarter this year - NJ residence 3,880.
light and gas averaged by PSE & G. 360 per month and due to go up in February.
Oil Depending on ambient temperature (Escrowed) 15 room house 500
Verizon 240.
Water 90
house insurance 216
Trash. 80
Car insurance We are well insured incase we ever seriously hurt someone. 606
And again, it's N.J.

Then gas, car maintenance
Food
and yes wound care medical gets to the $2k annual deductible + meds
at another $100 or so,

and on and on.

[Topomi]

23. I Quit flying

A month after 9/11 was my last trip on a plane. We were treated like livestock plus under constant suspicion and I enjoy driving.

[peacebuzzard]

55. Everyone quit flying then. All planes were empty of passengers.

I have been around awhile and have always depended on the airline industry to get me around. But after 9/11 the industry tanked; people were on edge and everyone lost money and had to reorganize. Airline mergers started happening when the industry tried to balance books. TSA was introduced and security became a big issue for airports and the travelers.
It is back with a vengeance now. All planes are full.
I don't blame you for quitting the airport scene. It is demoralizing to say the least. Wish I didn't have to.
I feel like I am a captive soul in that industry grid...I need to get where I am going to but the experience is something I need to psyched up for to do it.

[Wonder Why]

24. Have a wonderful(?) trip with her.

[MIButterfly]

27. I hope to have a wonderful trip DESPITE her!

Last edited Thu Oct 30, 2025, 01:49 PM - Edit history (1)

One of us always bites her tongue around the other and it isn't her. I do it to keep the peace, because she and my uncle (my late mother's brother) are basically the only family I have. It's not always easy......

[Ocelot II]

26. Air traffic controllers are paid pretty well, and they should be.

It's a high-stress job with enormous responsibility. But the fact that they are paid well (when they do get paid) has nothing to do with the fairness of withholding anybody's paycheck or with the consequences not only to the employee but to everyone who might be downstream of that paycheck. Those normally well-paid air traffic controllers won't be buying stuff or paying other people who rely on them, and this is true to various degrees of all of the people who aren't getting paid, no matter how large or small their missing paychecks might be.

[mnhtnbb]

29. I flew home from Heathrow to RDU

a week ago today. No problems. If you can take a direct flight --without connections--do it. Much less chance for delays or cancellations.

I did, however, witness a woman being taken away by Immigration officials. She was in the line for holders of US Passports and Permanent Residents. In my 40 years of traveling internationally, I'd never seen that.

I hope you have an uneventful flying experience!

[MIButterfly]

37. Thanks, mnhtnbb!

[Tree Lady]

30. My daughter makes over double that

But has high rent in CA and helps both her kids in late 20's. And her boyfriend doesn't work, don't get me started on him....if he was a nice guy maybe I wouldn't care, but he is maga and a jerk. And she is in tax bracket as a single that takes a ton of it. So what you make is not always what you have.

[MIButterfly]

38. Exactly!

I hope your daughter comes to her senses about that guy sooner rather than later. I am dealing with a somewhat similar situation. My best friend is living with and supporting a convicted felon who's out on bail (which she put up, of course!). Never even knew him before he went to jail. Don't get ME started!

[Tree Lady]

40. Feel same way unfortunately she has been with

Him for years despite entire family not liking him. She stopped years ago bringing him to anything, and I notice she is hardly with him, works late, busy most weekends. He seems to know how to manipulate her.

He is supposed to cook and clean but he smashes dishes around breaking them, it's obvious he hates doing it but knows he has to. In a way I am glad she lives out of state would drive me crazy to see it all the time.

He is a body builder and spends everyday at the gym, walks around house with shirt off thinking he looks good, ugh!

[ms.pamela]

31. Flying

Here on the west coast $104,000 is barely making it if you have a kid or two. $200,000 a year is considered middle class. I know it is hard for folks living in cheaper areas of the country to understand that especially those whose homes are paid for. I remember reading something recently that explained bill by bill how little a single person would have left each month if they made $75,000 a year and that wasn't for the west coast either. The cost of rent is enormous, example a one-bedroom apartment rents for a minimum of $1,500 a month and that does not include utilities except maybe trash, add on electricity-gas, internet and rental insurance and that amount could easily hit $2,000. Healthcare costs are high, taxes, (federal and state) are high, food is expensive without even eating out. The costs of owning a car- insurance, gas and upkeep adds up, never mind a car payment. Not much left for savings, clothing, entertainment or charity. Getting to the point, this study showed after the person put around 2% of their income into a 401K there was only $3,000 left a year for things like clothing, cable, gifts, charities or emergencies. Probably much less now due to the rising cost of food and health insurance. So much for the great American experiment. I really dislike people l who think like your aunt. Air traffic controllers have an extremely stressful job, so much so it causes many of them health issues. Now they are expected to work without pay, just disgusting.

[MIButterfly]

39. Exactly. People like my aunt have absolutely no idea

what other people have to go through or deal with.

I agree with every word you said, especially about how air traffic controllers have an extremely stressful job and being asked to work without pay is disgusting.

[RVN VET71]

41. Your aunt is very naive.

Don't be harsh on her. It appears her world was designed and made by her husband -- and has extremely narrow borders.

[maunagirl]

46. Not necessarily.

There was a heated debate online when they showed this line of people waiting for a drive-thru food pantry. This was a month ago or so. Very long line and one thing people kept saying was how nice the cars were. And there are always the responses like "You don't know if that person is picking food for someone without a car." Which is true for some but I believe that the majority of those people owned those later-model SUVs. People want to go out to eat all the time, buy clothes they don't need, go on vacations, etc. even if their paycheck doesn't support it.

[ret5hd]

58. try living in a compact car for a week...

then again in a suv.

[maunagirl]

44. If someone makes $100K a year

that shouldn't automatically mean bigger bills! You inadvertently hit on the problem: living beyond your means. A hundred grand to me is living in the lap of luxury but I know that is still considered middle-class. The point is not to have expenses that keep you on the edge of disaster at all time. Living more modestly means you can actually save money. We live in a very materialistic society but people have to learn how to enjoy the simple things in life.

[Pacifist Patriot]

52. It is more nuanced than that.

It depends on a lot of things. First of all housing costs in the market where you live. Not everyone has the ability to just up and move to a lower COL area.

I live in a small town about an hour away from the next big city. Someone making $100K in that city who relocated to San Francisco for work would have to make $178K to maintain the same relative income to costs.

Student loan debt is way more of an impact on household finances than it was when I graduated from college. Saving for, or putting kids through college, is pricier these days.

People who buy older cheaper houses to stay within their means may have more maintenance costs as things wear out and need to be replaced.

People living within their means can have an accident or a medical expense that catapults them over their means, even if they are saving a little bit with each paycheck.

The point is that someone's gross wage alone is not nearly enough data to pass judgment on what they should or could do with their net pay.

[peacebuzzard]

57. welcome to DU, muanagirl

[ret5hd]

59. i have high hopes for that one.

[EX500rider]

62. She was close but a little low:

The average pay for an air traffic controller is around $144,580 annually, but this can vary significantly based on experience, location, and the complexity of the facility. With experience, many certified controllers can earn over $160,000, and top earners can make over $210,410

[MIButterfly]

65. As well they should!

It's a very stressful job where they have a lot of responsibilty and must be precise. I imagine it's also pretty stressful. They're worth every dime and then some, as far I'm concerned.

[peacebuzzard]

72. yes they are.

I have listened to the controllers in conversation with air traffic before.
Their voice tones are more clear and direct than any other pro speakers such as media announcers/newscasters, convention presentations, CEO's. so on.
There is no excitement, no nuances. no guessing. It's direct and precise. This subgroup of employees is very special and vital, essential. Air Travelers/Companies cannot survive without this group.
Every day I think of this how are they handling the no pay situation. It has to be infuriating for them to be missing their paychecks. This pro group should have the first access to essential emergency funding. Air travel is the only way to physically get around in a global economy both as a people mover and air transportation of goods.