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My cousin called me earlier today, saying, You won't believe it! A friend he has known for many decades, who had been a maga cult member since 2016, had called him to say, Just so you know, I fucking hate trump now. I know his friend Gene casually, at best. He is a Vietnam combat veteran, an often bitter, angry fellow who felt his country had betrayed him since he returned from the war. My cousin has found it odd that he would identify with the bone-spurred felon.
Now, a person could think that a change of heart of one old man is insignificant in the larger scheme of things. Still others might instead think back to the teachings of the great Cesar Chavez
.. that we make change one person at a time. And now, of course, is exactly that time. As Malcolm X noted, we should give people room to change. And there are ways in which we can assist some though not all cult members to come back to reality, if we are patient.
Not everyone is a therapist sitting in an office, meeting with extended family, neighbors, or co-workers who suffer from the shared delusion of maga. That is actually a good thing, because in a healthy society, people benefit from getting feedback from family, friends, neighbors, and co-workers when they begin to obsess on conspiracy theories and superstitions that pose stumbling blocks to rational thinking. Yet we are a deeply troubled nation at this time, where unhealthy numbers of individuals have tacitly agreed to believe outrageous lies. Thus the question: how does one end such agreements?
I like to use models, and so I have shared one with my cousin and others that I find helpful. I call it the Crockett Model, as it was used by a WW2 combat veteran in 1969 1970. The son of a minister who found meaning as a prospector named Paul Crockett, who while in the desert encountered individuals who wanted to break away from a cult that self-identified as the Family. Perhaps you have heard of this cult, which was ruled by a sociopath with an uncanny number of personality features shared by the current president.
At this point, I will add a bit of speculation on my part. I recognize that coming from a religious upbringing, Crockett was aware of the tactics of false leaders. But I also suspect that somewhere along the line, he might have come to understand the tactics of pimps. Because I haven't discussed this with co-workers I've been retired for over two decades I mention it here, to co-workers in Democratic Party political activism.
The desert cult leader had been a pimp. Jeffrey Epstein was a pimp. And the fiendish felon has been pimping, non-flesh at the very least, all of his adult life. His tactics are not that different. The I am the only one who can protect you bit is merely the tip of the ice cube. The role that violence, including that which is implied, is also common ground shared by cult leaders.
Out in the desert, Crockett spoke to the young adults about the implied agreement they had made in becoming members of the Family. It goes further than group identity, when one is doing a significantly large dose of LSD and the leader asks, Will you die for me? becoming an expressed agreement. (I suspect that Crockett was aware that the death of self involved in being born again was distinct from the desert group's understanding. Heck, it is different than what most christian churches grasp. But alone in the desert, Crockett had studied philosophy and theology while not prospecting, which suggests the biblical meaning of the desert.)
Slowly but surely, Crockett allowed the young adults to describe the agreements they made in becoming a member of the cult. Also, the agreements or promises that were made to them, either tacitly or expressly. And he encouraged them to identify the large space between the two, as their well-being was not being provided for. This included their recognize that this included the cult leader's replacing all you need is love with increasingly frequent outbursts that put their physical and psychological safety at risk.
Now, my cousin used the same tactics that I do when speaking with a person we have long known, who became a maga cult member. They, too, had to make agreements to become a member those these are often internal agreements that spill over into the group identity. They vote for the felon, they attended his rallies, they not only bought those silly hats, they wear them in public. They gang up on others both in person and on the internet who are not in their cult. And they agree to accept their leader's lies as gospel truth, despite being aware they are being lied to about some things. Yet they were convinced that his primary focus was their well-being.
So, instead of engaging in conversations about topics that are distant from their day-to-day life, I always focus on their lives. Simple things, such as the price of groceries, or medical coverage for them and their extended families. About the Epstein files that were promised to be fully exposed. About the cost of their children's college education and job opportunities. And are their children able to buy a house.
It takes patience and time. It requires not saying they have been fooled by a sociopath-in-chief. Or that they are wrong, despite the sad fact that they are. Deprogramming cult members can only be accomplished successfully by helping them come to their own conclusions, based upon the conditions they are experiencing.
I know that many good people here tend to think fuck them when it comes to maga. I would be lying if I said that I find very many that I would try to assist in coming back to reality. Or that there are not some that I delight in exposing their ignorance in debate. At very best, I am sad and weakly human, like everyone else. But I do realize that even after the 2026 and 2028 elections, when we regain the power of majority in government, that we still will live in the same towns and cities as these people.
pat_k
(12,157 posts)New Yorker Radio Hour: Sarah McBride (1st trans U.S. Congressperson)
https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/tnyradiohour/articles/sarah-mcbride-on-the-fight-for-trans-rights
Excerpt:
We are shooting ourselves in the foot as people who believe in progress when we create no incentive for people to grow because they perceive they will be permanently guilty for having been wrong. We create no space for them to grow by extending no grace for them to walk there...
One of the reasons you see people pushed into their respective corners -- you say something that's deemed problematic. And you are immediately hounded by one side and immediately embraced by the other side. Human nature is -- when faced with that degree of extreme binary reactions is to go to the people who are validating you instantaneously. So we unintentionally push people further and further into their own corners and into their negative opinion by responding with a degree of condemnation and vitriol that creates no incentive or space for them to grow.
Reconciling my own anger at "them" with how deeply disturbing I find the level of name-calling, extreme stereotyping, and assumptions about who "they" are that I see among "us," is certainly a complicated mess.
But ultimately, the only way back will be through listening, and moving away from tossing conclusions at each other. Don't focus on the conclusions. Ask about the experiences that brought the person to this or that view. That's how the door to the possibility of connecting as people is opened a crack. And when someone feels heard, they are far more likely to be willing to listen to you talk about the experiences that brought you to a different view.
It is not about "making nice." It is not about "compromising" or "agreeing." It is about seeking to have genuinely honest, genuinely curious conversations.
I really appreciate your response here!
Living in a largely republican region of upstate NY, I've tried to remain on good terms with my neighbors. Only one household dislikes me ..... though they waved a couple of times after seeing on the internet that my son won another NYS Golden Gloves title. He did his roadwork by their place, and most people know him. Although he is nice and shy, many find him intimidating because he doesn't talk much. But he did win an election for town justice by a 545 to 5 margin against a republican. The court had become rather rowdy, and the thought was that no one would lip off to him -- people actually told me that! -- as if he would beat people up!
Hekate
(99,984 posts)As always!
Easterncedar
(5,126 posts)At this point I dont know if its possible. Thanks for helping me to think about it.
pat_k
(12,157 posts)"I Never Thought of It That Way: How to Have Fearlessly Curious Conversations in Dangerously Divided Times"
https://www.moniguzman.com/
The paradox is that you need to start from a place of not seeking to change their mind.
You might also want to check out Deeyah Khan's "My documentary about White Supremacy. White Right: Meeting the Enemy"
Deeyah is a very courageous and compassionate woman. She wades into the lion's den and focuses on feelings, and how she, and the people she talks to, came to adopt the beliefs they have adopted-- and how those beliefs personally affect her.
Narrative of the whys and lived experience, instead of tossing opposing conclusions at each other, is how we can connect on a human level.
And frankly, whether it sparks reevaluation is not the point. She did not go into this with any expectations of convincing the people she spoke to. She went in with genuine curiosity. The paradox of going in to listen, and being
real about where we are, with no expectations, is more powerful than arguing a "fact-based" or logical case.
H2O Man
(78,151 posts)A while back, I encountered a gentleman who was rigidly republican. He was among a group of friends in the grocery store. We all chatted for a few minutes, before heading on our way. I said to the guy, "Let's get together and have coffee soon." He got very defensive, almost hostile, and said, "You aren't going to change my mind!" I said I had no interest in changing his mind, that instead I like to talk to intelligent people who have very different opinions than me. His only response was to say, "Oh," and smile. He died a short time later, so we never got together. But I had opened a small door, remembering that Rubin often said that small doors sometimes open into large rooms.
Easterncedar
(5,126 posts)H2O Man
(78,151 posts)My friends and I frequently discuss the gulf that has grown between us and many of our old friends. It can be difficult to converse with them, especially if they are in a group. It is even more difficult with those you have never actually liked.
I try to keep Jesus's teaching about the "good Samaritan" in mind. If I see that someone has drove off the road and into the ditch in front of my house -- something that has happened literally each of the 31 years I've lived here -- I do not ask their party registration before helping them. I think that many people have driven into a ditch on social-political beliefs. While I can't help that many, I am aware that each one has a group of friends they interact with, so I hope it spreads.
One tactic I find useful is that, no matter how they start a conversation, I smile and ask, "Hey, do you remember the times we used to ______________? I was thinking about that yesterday. I miss doing that with you."
Mysterian
(6,046 posts)It's very difficult to be charitable with trumpers at this juncture. But I suppose there are some who could emerge from the darkness, imposed by years of propaganda, and see the light.
pat_k
(12,157 posts)And ultimately, just as with marriage equality, the people with the best shot at reaching others whose entire social identities are still wrapped up in MAGA will be former MAGA folk.
There is an infamous member of that desert family who lives not far from me. (She once pulled a gun on President Ford.) She mantains her loyalty to that terrible cult. She is a fine example of the type of person I would not invest in time or energy in dealing with. There are people I know who are similarly ill in their imagined connection to the felon.
EmmaLee E
(262 posts)I have been so disappointed in the constant sniping and name from both sides.
No hope of convincing anyone of anything in that environment.
H2O Man
(78,151 posts)My late friend Rubin Carter once asked me, "What do you have when a wise person argues with a fool?" The answer is "two fools."
I am unaware of any benefit that results from adding to the negative environment in this country.
spanone
(140,513 posts)Thank you!