Trump and Hegseth may have made the biggest mistake in their lives.

[Augiedog]

You don’t lecture and abuse people who actually know what it means to “protect and defend the constitution”. They just exposed for the entire world what an “enemy of the State” really is. Never should have done this….so of course they did do it.

[Irish_Dem]

1. No one has stood up to them yet.

Why would they think the military would do so??

Courts and congress have taken oaths too.
Ha ha.

[Takket]

2. what's depressing is the courts have actaully kicked his ass right and left so far this term....

it is SCOTUS that keeps stabbing the lower courts in the back and just issuing "stays" without actually ruling anything to let him just keep doing what he's doing.

[lame54]

4. Lower appellate courts have been helping him

[Irish_Dem]

6. The SC is part of the Trump Crime Syndicate.

They must be paid very very well to betray their oaths and country.

[JHB]

11. They are, but they call it "gifts" and "gratuities", not "pay"

[Irish_Dem]

14. And their evil benefactors are just friends.

[MLWR]

30. A BRIBE by any other name (gratuity, tip, gift etc) is still a BRIBE.

[BattleRow]

48. Ever see the film ,"Seven Days in May"?

Classic film about an attempted military coup by U.S. military.
One of the finest films I've ever seen,and although a vintage movie,quite eye opening and synchronistic.

[Irish_Dem]

49. Today US generals don't want to face treason charges.

And lose their excellent salary, pension, perks, top of the line housing and healthcare.

[electric_blue68]

56. I saw it a bunch of times on TV waaay back.

[walkingman]

3. Hate to break it to you but the military will do as they are told...

service members have a duty to obey lawful orders. They might not agree with them but it is their duty to do so unless the orders are "unlawful".

I think it was an embarrassing display by Trump and Hegseth but this is the consequences of electing a person with no character or ethics. I listened to the entire speech and it was almost unbelievable to me. I simply cannot understand why Congress would ignore the obvious fact that he has mental problems.

[sheshe2]

7. So, if he commands lethal force on Americans...

Will they obey that order on demonstrating Americans? Shoot and shoot to kill.

[walkingman]

8. I think that would be considered illegal. Would they comply anyway?

That is unknown but the act of doing so would trigger the "powers that be" to intervene - either from their commanders or our judicial system. Not to say that will happen because we have done things based on racism, ethnicity, before that were clearly wrong.

As I said prior to Trump's election in '24 - this will tell us what kind of nation we really are. I personally think we are clearly a nation in decline.

[ancianita]

9. The military would consider it an illegal order. He doesn't get the final word on what defines "war" or

Last edited Wed Oct 1, 2025, 02:44 PM - Edit history (1)

which Americans or orgs (antifa) are "enemy combatants" of an "invasion." The US military would not attack American citizens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

The Posse Comitatus Act is a United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385, original at 20 Stat. 152) signed on June 18, 1878, by President Rutherford B. Hayes that limits the powers of the federal government and any other government entities such as county sheriffs and justices of the peace that are authorized to form a posse comitatus in the use of federal military personnel to execute the law within the United States. Congress passed the Act as an amendment to an army appropriation bill following the end of Reconstruction and updated it in 1956, 1981 and 2021.

The Act originally applied only to the United States Army, but a subsequent amendment in 1956 expanded its scope to the United States Air Force. In 2021, the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2022 further expanded the scope of the Act to cover the United States Navy, Marine Corps, and Space Force.

[Safe as Milk]

42. Eh... antifa is not an organization. It's an antifascist sentiment. n/t

[ancianita]

47. Of course. We know that. But he'll call it whatever to create a media image to his base.

[DownriverDem]

13. Sadly

It happened at Kent State. "In 1970, the Kent State University shootings occurred on May 4th, when Ohio National Guardsmen fired into a crowd of unarmed student protesters, killing four students and wounding nine others. The killings resulted from unrest over the Vietnam War, specifically the invasion of Cambodia, and took place during an anti-war rally on the university campus."

[sheshe2]

16. I remember that very well.

[LittleGirl]

23. I was only 10

But I saw that on the news. My parents watched with us. Nothing was shielded from us. It’s one of those memories I’ve always had. That photo seared into my brain forever.

[ReRe]

21. That is the $64,000 question, isn't it? n/t

[sheshe2]

22. It certainly is.

I don't believe we are all that far from that point.

[ReRe]

27. Today was bone-chilling.

I agree. I believe we are on the precipice.

[Bmoboy]

53. If the troops are armed, they will shoot

Tempers will flare, confusion will abound, and soldiers with automatic weapons will pull the trigger in fear or anger.

The "unlawful order" is the one to send armed soldiers into American cities. That is where the generals are tested.

So far, they have followed orders.

[TimeToGo]

18. And that's the key

What will be considered a lawful order?

That said, there is certainly a possibility of slow rolling orders. We used to do it all the time. Now, I’m not suggesting it was ever anything like we are talking about here. But, there are lots of ways to slow things down.

[3Hotdogs]

24. No one balked about firing on Venezuelan boats.

[Safe as Milk]

43. It was just Diddling Donny punching down in his traditional way.

Murdering random people has become fashionable for the Diddler. He loves the video collection for his presidential library.

[Ilsa]

35. Is everything trump does lawful?

SCOTUS says he can't be held accountable. Would the military person following an illegal order be held accountable?

[walkingman]

44. I seriously doubt it. However, in days of old it has happened but these days it is pretty

obvious that there is no accountability for anyone if it can be viewed as political.

[azureblue]

51. they would be held accountable

in a military court. Where the military oath is pretty much held sacred.

[Safe as Milk]

40. Diddling Donny's power to punish protects him.

Even people with dementia can muster enough energy to order hits and killings on the flimsiest of justifications. If it grunts and Diddling Donny doesn't like the sound, he can silence it, especially if he can arrange it so that he's doing it as a function of his job.

[walkingman]

54. 100% correct. Not only can he use the power of our judicial system to go after them

but also the crazies that are so deranged they do his bidding.

Some seem to think "if you're innocent, you have nothing to worry about" but is just not true. Just fighting him in court can run up huge legal bills and most average people could never afford but with this nasty AG it is not unreasonable to believe you could go to prison.

The issue is pretty simple - why would decent people in the GOP congress stand by and allow this? Because they care more about getting re-elected by the nasty white nationalist base than they do about the rule of law. I see it every day here in Texas. They not only support Trump 100% but in our state government it is the key to getting elected in our illegally gerrymandered state.

There are nasty SOBs out there, and never underestimate them.

[azureblue]

50. unless

the order violates the oath they take to protect and defend the Constitution from all enemies, both foreign and domestic. Pedo and Heg are blatantly ignoring the Constitution and the Posse Comitatus act, and the military had that thrown in their faces. IOW, they serve the Constitution, not the president. No doubt the officers are having some very frank talks about what to do if Trump decides to use the military against America itself. The military will circle their wagons.

We have already seen, in Trump's little parade a few months back, how much they dislike him, so my bet is the military will simply refuse to obey Pedo's commands. And there is nothing Trump can do about it. He can threaten to fire, remove from command, etc., but a military court will prove reason to disobey. And with the military seemingly united against Pedo, he has reached his Waterloo.

Pedo's whole game is built around using the military to seize power.And THAT is what was in full view.

[bucolic_frolic]

5. Changing the purpose of the military from fighting for freedom in the world to

suppressing freedom at home is a colossal shift. It might be slow for the perception to take hold though.

[orangecrush]

10. Yup

[flashman13]

12. Augiedog you are so right. They told the leaders of the military that the are going to issue illegal orders.

I expect the internal communication systems in the upper echelons are glowing red hot at this moment.

[Tetrachloride]

25. Signal app is a well known way. But ... it is well known.

If there are other methods of communication, ..... then there are other methods of communication.

Flawlessly logical.

[popsdenver]

15. Actually,

not "what" the enemy of the state really is..................but "WHO" the enemy of the state really is......

[oasis]

17. Trump has the habit of out of control blundering.

[Aristus]

20. It hasn't gotten him imprisoned yet. So he's going to keep doing it.

n/t

[DinahMoeHum]

36. Nobody is that lucky forever.

Nobody.

[The Wizard]

46. He should have been taken into custody

January 21, 2021. Merrick Garland dropped the ball.
The Mediocre(formerly Supreme) Court unleashed The Modern Prometheus on humanity when they granted a blanket pardon for any crimes he might commit in the name of the President of the United States. The Felonious Six should be held to account for malfeasance of office and disbarred for lying under oath to the Senate in order to secure a lifetime appointment to the most powerful legal body in the country.

[ZDU]

19. ... all enemies foreign and domestic ...

[angrychair]

26. Nope.

Don't kid yourself, that military that is willing to murder boats full of innocent people will have no problem gunning down innocent civilians.

[raccoon]

28. I would hope that you are right, but so far Trump and his minions have gotten away with everything.

I blame this on the stupid Republican Congress persons who had two chances to vote to convict Trump when he was impeached and they fucking didn’t do it. And the Supreme Court too, who enable him six ways from Sunday.

[ananda]

29. Do you think they knew this was what they were doing?

Remember, these are demented toddlers playing toy soldiers
in a sandbox.

[Joinfortmill]

31. Agree. They woke a very big beast.

[IcyPeas]

32. Anyone talking about this anymore... or nah?

[babylonsister]

33. Not nearly enough. nt

[surfered]

34. Their fellow Americans are not their enemy, despite what Fox and Newsmax says.

[tavernier]

38. Yeah, I doubt it.

Not one word this morning about that on the news that I could find. All the talk was about how weak democrats are and how this shutdown is going to last a long time because of that. It’s like Donnie‘s little fiasco with the generals never took place yesterday.

[AdamGG]

41. It's largely the Steve Bannon "flood the zone with shit" playbook

It's purposely hard to focus on/rally around a single thing because there are so much authoritarian overreach happening simultaneously. Someone like Jimmy Kimmel is a large enough public figure that it was hard for them to succeed against him, but the other things are more abstract to average people living their day to day lives.

[BurnDoubt]

39. Don't Shit In Your Hejmet.

[AdamGG]

45. There are plenty of analogues of authoritarians directing their military to "fight the enemy within"

I was asking ChatGPT for examples of this late last night (and it's not a soothing bedtime topic). One element of many megalomaniacs appearing a little goofy in their presentation is that it helps people to take them less seriously while they assume full authoritarian power. I wouldn't minimize Trump/Hegseth's speech to the military, especially in how its timing follows the Charlie Kirk assassination and their focus on using it as a rationale. It is WAY outside historical norms for the US. Doing it publicly has the possible goal of attempting to intimidate people from pushing back - as they have already done with law firms, the media, and universities. I think every democracy that was taken over by authoritarian forces sought to intimidate people in this way.

This is part of ChatGPT's response to me last night.

Yes — what you’re describing does mirror patterns seen in other democratic republics that slid into authoritarianism. Political scientists and historians have identified several common steps by which democracies erode, and the sequence you outlined fits many of those warning signs:

1. Consolidation of executive power

Loyalists in the judiciary, military, and executive agencies ensure that laws and checks are interpreted to favor the executive.

This makes it difficult or impossible for traditional constitutional checks to function.

Historical parallels:

Venezuela under Chávez/Maduro: Court-packing and loyalist appointments enabled executive dominance over legislative and judicial checks.

Hungary under Orbán: Gradual consolidation of judiciary and control over regulatory agencies.

2. Manipulation of elections

Redistricting, voter suppression, or “legalistic” manipulation of the electoral system to maintain legislative majorities is a classic authoritarian tactic.

Examples:

Russia in the 1990s–2000s: Strategic legal and political maneuvers limited opposition representation while maintaining a façade of elections.

Turkey under Erdoğan: Electoral rules and state control over elections ensured ruling-party dominance.

3. Erosion of civil liberties and rule of law

Using the military or law enforcement against perceived opponents without genuine legal justification, or targeting political opponents, is a hallmark of early authoritarian consolidation.

Examples:

Weimar Germany pre-1933: The Reichstag Fire and subsequent emergency powers allowed Hitler to bypass legislative checks.

Philippines under Marcos: Martial law was used to neutralize opposition and control institutions.

4. Control of the judiciary

Packing courts with loyalists removes an independent check on executive overreach.

Without a neutral judiciary, constitutional guarantees (due process, checks and balances) are effectively hollow.

5. Eliminating accountability mechanisms

Gerrymandering, controlling Congress, controlling regulatory agencies, and purging dissenting officials all shield the executive from oversight.

Historical examples:

Hungary: Parliament reshaped and electoral laws rewritten to prevent opposition from gaining power.

Venezuela: Supreme Court and electoral council made loyalist appointments to prevent legislative pushback.

6. Implications for the U.S.

In theory, the U.S. Constitution has strong structural safeguards, but if multiple layers of oversight are captured or neutered, the system becomes vulnerable to authoritarian-style control.

This is exactly the concern many scholars raise when observing court-packing, legislative manipulation, military loyalty shifts, and executive encroachment on civil liberties.

[Bluetus]

52. How do you think those Generals liked being lectured by an O-4?

a Major (the lowest field grade officer rank), and that was in the National Guard, not the Army?

To his credit, he was deployed 3 times, but only once when he conceivably could have seen hostile action. That was a year in Iraq, described as: "During his 2005 to 2006 deployment with the 101st Airborne Division, Hegseth was first an infantry platoon leader in Baghdad. He later served as a Civil-Military Operations officer in Samarra, where he worked with the city council."

Not to minimize any service in a hostile zone, and by 2006, we were in Cheney's "last throes", and the heavy action was not in Baghdad -- it was north of that.

He had a tour in Afghanistan, but that was as a counterinsurgency instructor at the Counterinsurgency Training Center. I'm sure that is an important job, but not one where he had to make any decisions that would risk the lives under his command.

And his third tour was in Gitmo. 'nuff said?

So this drunk calls every general -- and THEIR STAFF, a total of over 2000 people most likely to be lectured by a GUardsman who has never had any live combat experience. I don't see how any of the Generals could be very happy about that, regardless of their politics.

[pat_k]

55. Yes. Staging a MAGA rally for stone-faced generals has (hopefully) done irreparable harm to the regime

And I believe it has -- on multiple levels:

My thoughts:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100220688887