They cannot identify most of the dead from last night's slaughter

[malaise]

It is total and complete carnage.
Thanks you supporters of assault weapons.

This is insane.

[iluvtennis]

1. OMG - how horrific. Assault rifles are weapons of war and need to be banned for civilian ownership. n/t

[lastlib]

45. "Industrial-strength killing machines".....

That, rather than "assault weapons," should be the monikers for these guns. We have to change the debate.

[Maraya1969]

75. I don't know if they can force politicians to stay in congress and the senate but I think they should make them

watch a video of each and every person's split up body

Somehow make those people watch what they are supporting.

[cab67]

95. In most cases, they actually are banned or restricted.

See my comment below. The weapons used for these mass killings aren't actually assault rifles. They're assault-style rifles.

The distinction is meaningless to the victims of these shootings and their families - so I agree that assault-style rifles should also be banned or restricted.

[maxsolomon]

2. Did they say what the challenge is?

No ID? Bodies unrecognizable?

[malaise]

3. Sounds like bodies unrecognizable

[yorkster]

4. I was afraid that might be the case...

Just terribly sad. And sickening.

[womanofthehills]

156. That's why Israel cut off internet

To stop more dead photos of children being shown to the whole world.

[obamanut2012]

8. Children usually don't carry ID

And these rifles tear up their little bodies. Head shots will explode the head, so even dental records won't help at all.

[GP6971]

85. Enjoy your stay!!

[womanofthehills]

155. Parents write kids names on arms & legs to be identified incase they die

Most of the dead children images online all have their names written on them - so sad - they knew they would probably die. I would post pics but too horrible .

[Warpy]

15. Here you go. This is what sanitized news and cop shows won't tell you

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/interactive/2023/ar-15-damage-to-human-body/

No paywall.

This is why I want those fucking things out of civilian hands.

[Tansy_Gold]

50. Paywall remains in place

I won't even sign up for a "free" account to WaPo.

[irisblue]

62. WaPo Gift article on what an AR15 does to a human body.thru graphics

https://wapo.st/47ofioz

[dembotoz]

73. but but i can use that rifle for deer hunting.....lots of the meat gets ruined but

its my weapon of choice.......

[Warpy]

97. Someone posted here that he liked his for shooting coyotes

who were attacking his sheep. I can see that, but he was just as likely to take out one of his sheep and defeat the purpose. He'd be better off with a 30.06. He'd have to aim more carefully, but the splatter would be just as satisfying.

AR 15s might be fun to shoot if you're into that, but they're useless at anything but slaughtering human beings. They've got to go.,

[sl8]

116. Everything I've seen said he used a .308.

The .308 very close to the same as a .30-06, ballistically.

[IronLionZion]

127. He was a skilled marksman with 21 years of Army reserve experience/training

The kids and people he killed never had a chance.

AR-15 is great for coyotes but it is the civilian version of the military M16. Literally designed to kill a lot of humans quickly. Army wanted a new rifle after WW2. M16 was used from Vietnam through the present.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArmaLite_AR-15

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle

[thatdemguy]

157. The 30.06 bullet has 3 times the energy of the ar15 bullet.

And the bullet is moving almost as fast and weighs 3 times as much. Both need to be aimed, as miss is a miss big bullet or small one.

[Bucky]

92. Thank you

They handled this tastefully, but left little room for misinformation.

Sadly, most people who need to understand this have been acculturated into not caring about what happens to other peoples' kids

[Attilatheblond]

25. The type of weapon used shreds flesh, sometimes takes heads off bodies, no way to ID shredded people

Short of DNA from probable family members, there won't be much to identify. Same was true in Uvalde.

There is NO reason for such weapons of war to be in the hands of individuals on the streets of this nation.

[struggle4progress]

52. High-powered rounds leave big exit wounds in small body and a real mess?

[inthewind21]

124. They have ALL

been identified

https://apnews.com/article/maine-shooting-victims-1be7d14e90ef6c91ca23819163d29f3e

[OMGWTF]

5. I am really starting to hate this fked-up country. Thanks for ruining it Rethuglicans.

[Irish_Dem]

12. Yep. All Americans need to hang their heads in shame.

History will not judge us kindly. Rightly so.

[onecaliberal]

29. You're in good company.

[Give Peace A Chance]

90. I agree

There is no good reason that weapons of war should be on the streets of America.
This is on you: REPUBLICANS.

[2naSalit]

6. That's why they...

Are being careful about how many they are claiming are dead. Those bullets are like little bombs inside a body.

Should not be weapons like that available to civilians and should not be in the public realm.

[JoseBalow]

7. Like the children from Uvalde

where they needed to identify some victims using DNA

[IcyPeas]

9. Or the girl with the green sneakers

[PortTack]

10. Exactly!

[malaise]

14. My first thought

Rec

[nitpicked]

18. This might take some time

If no bloodkin are in the area.

[nitpicked]

20. A DC-area TV station had on a story

About a Maryland man headed up to Maine to try to find his relative(s).

[Irish_Dem]

11. Wasn't it the same with the Sandyhook 6 yr olds? Had to do DNA testing.

Bodies so mangled and shot up.

[txwhitedove]

28. Same in Ulvalde. I believe one little girl was

only identified by her green sneakers.

[Irish_Dem]

82. An assault rifle literally blows apart the body of a child.

I hope the children die quickly and do not suffer.

The US is a disgrace.

[GP6971]

81. Hello.

[Bucky]

93. "We think that one might be your dead kid. Could we please get a DNA sample from you?"

Imagine how that increases the trauma of the moment.

[Irish_Dem]

100. Yes because most parents realize exactly what this means.

[EX500rider]

13. Yes, we should move somewhere safe like Jamaica?

Oh, never mind, I see their homicide rate is almost 8 times worse then the US, currently listed as #1 in the world, ouch.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

[TheCowsCameHome]

16. WTF...

...is your point?

[58Sunliner]

17. No, we should probably just have assault weapon bans.

[NBachers]

23. Bloody Decent of you, troll.

[femmedem]

24. Why are you lashing out at Malaise?

Are you saying that being a Jamaican resident precludes mourning American victims of gun violence? Or that America wouldn't be safer with stricter gun laws?

Or maybe consider self-deleting your post, if it's just snark?

[malaise]

33. Let him be

He has a problem with people from shithole countries pointing out that we’re all full of shit.

By the way my Great Aunt arrived in New York before DeathSentence’s folks and the maternal great uncles attended black colleges - all of them before WWI.
My oldest sister was born in New York and all my siblings, their kids and grandkids are Americans.
And most of the guns used in ourshithole country come from his own.😀😀

[EX500rider]

134. "And most of the guns used in ourshithole country come from his own"

Actually I was born in Montego Bay at Dr Edermiers Nursing Home & Dental Clinic.

[malaise]

144. That is actually Eldimire

But whatever

[SunSeeker]

30. Can we please compare apples to apples?

Jamaica is a third world country overrun by the violent narcotics and ganja trade, like much of Central and South America. Their only viable legal industries are tourism and rum, causing many locals to turn to the violent drug trade (fueled by US drug demand and US guns).

How about we compare the US to other wealthy industrialized Western countries that are not currently at war?

[róisín_dubh]

69. That would require the poster to not be a jerk

I moved to the UK and it is such a nice thing to not have to worry about guns while out and about living my life.
But that wouldn't fit in the poster's snotty little commentary.

[LuckyCharms]

31. Are you trying to make a point here?

If so, what is it?

[Elessar Zappa]

39. What does Jamaica have to do with the subject at hand?

[SarcasticSatyr]

42. If you had a point, I missed it ...

.... ?

[H2O Man]

43. I'm pretty sure

that the OP was about the destructive force of the type of ammunition the killer used. The body armor that the SWAT team(s) currently outside of the house they think he is in does not provide safety from this ammunition, which is one of the factors keeping them from attempting to enter right away.

[malaise]

148. Of course

You got the point

[H2O Man]

152. I tell my kids

that I'm not as dumb as I look.

[malaise]

154. ROFL

😀😀😀

[dpibel]

46. Looks like somebody's nationalist feelings

got a little hurt!

[mentalsolstice]

48. I remember when DU had rec and unrec capabilities

I’m glad they got rid of it quickly, because I would unrec this in a NY second. Malaise is much more gracious than me.

[stuck in the middle]

49. Did you think before posting that?

Fragmentos

Museo Nacional de Colombia

[LexVegas]

87. It's horrible. nt

[IronLionZion]

130. Or Israel

They've had some mass shootings recently as you might recall

[Marthe48]

19. I wondered about the death toll

rwnj jobs have blood, buckets of blood, on their hands.

[SunSeeker]

41. Yes, and this shooter was a RWNJ himself.

His social media suggests a violent conservative media diet.

On X, formerly Twitter, Card often liked posts from former President Donald Trump, conservative talk show host Tucker Carlson, and a professor who taught about terrorism, according to Heavy. Card had liked a March post from Donald Trump Jr. following a mass shooting in Nashville that read, “rather than talking about guns we should be talking about lunatics pushing their gender affirming bulls**t on our kids?” Card’s X account was suspended after the shooting.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/maine-mass-shooting-suspect_n_653a817ce4b0783c4ba049d4

[Sea Wolf]

22. 400 million guns in private hands

Yep, 400 million. How many are AR's? I don't know, but it has to be at least in the low millions. So let's all give a round of applause to Trump, Lyin Ted & his cohorts in Congress, the NRA & gun manufacturers for the carnage.

Now, they'll pay lip service to mass murder including Susan Collins.

[SunSeeker]

34. Nicole Wallace today reported that 25% of firearms sold in the US are ARs. nt

[Marthe48]

47. Don't forget the (formerly)

supreme court. The unelected, lying, fascists majority making laws up have allowed unlimited gun ownership. Why? So that the right wing has a shadow army that they don't arm, don't maintain, don't train and don't support. By allowing every person in America to buy a gun, the rw legislators and jurists guarantee members of the shadow army are armed. Their army will answer any dog whistle and travel to whatever spot the rw wing names. The corollary damage is that everyone really can get a gun, and the mass killings don't matter to whatever the rw end goal is.

Is there a goal? Or just chaos? RW wants forced birth, but don't want to help the born babies grow. RW doesn't even care if the children survive.

[TexasDem69]

60. What law did they make up?

Do you think only republicans own guns?

[Marthe48]

102. Should I say rulings?

That don't consider the common good and they make based on their own belief system? Such as unlimited gun ownership is fine and dandy, thanks to the (formerly) supreme court interpreting the 2ns Amendment as liberally as any court can get away with. The preamble and 14th Amendment are now narrowly interpreted, so everyone's ideal of Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness, along with personal autonomy has been flushed down the toilet.

My point here is that anyone in the U.S. can get a gun, and there is no sensible limit to who can have one. Gun ownership covers all religions, politics and culture, in a shade of blood red. OTOH, one state after another can dismantle voting rights and womens' rights and the fascist majority on the (formerly) s.c. are happy they can help the puppet master pulling their strings.

I have informative talks with a teen grandchild, who tells me the differences between AK 47s and AR 15s, and how long the guns have been made, who invented them, and why one is preferred over another. Good times.

[TexasDem69]

136. The Second Amendment is relatively clear

About what the government can do on firearms. And the courts aren’t supposed to consider the common good. Their role is to interpret the law or Constitution. The legislature is elected to consider the common good.

[Marthe48]

141. I'm not in the mood to split hairs

rwnj their elected legislators, their appointed judges and other rwnj officials have led us here to a constant daily bloodbath. And it is because of their agenda, their outlooks, and their grip on power.

[TexasDem69]

149. That's just wrong

Democrats have been in power just as much as Republicans these past 40 years. And applying g the Constitution as written is t splitting hairs, it’s applying the law of the land.

[SunSeeker]

161. You are dead wrong. SCOTUS has been GOP majority for 53 years.

In every term since 1970, the SCOTUS majority (consisting of at least 5 of the justices) has been appointed by Republican presidents.They're appointed for life. So we only get to appoint a justice if one dies or retires, they don't change with the party in the White House. If the right wing SCOTUS majority interpreted the 2nd Amendment as written and based on its purpose and history, they would not have created an individual right to own guns out of whole cloth IN 2007. It was a zombie amendment that had long ago failed its purpose. It was there to prevent a standing army by providing for well regulated militias. Any other interpretation is pure fantasy.

[TexasDem69]

164. The individual right to own firearms

Is plainly stated in the 2d Amendment. The right of the “people” to own firearms shall not be infringed. It doesn’t say the right of the “militia.” How is applying the plain meaning of the amendment creating a right out of whole cloth?

Do you think the “people” in the 2d Amendment means something different than the use of the term “people” in the 1st and 4th Amendments, which both protect individual rights?

[SunSeeker]

169. Step away from the NRA talking points and read Stevens' Dissent.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZD.html

[Duppers]

67. Susan Collins will be "concerned."

[yardwork]

26. I believe it's time to start publishing photos.

The media perpetuates this horror by sanitizing the truth.

[ok_cpu]

35. If you have an ounce of empathy, you don't need the photos

just the article posted upthread by Warpy with its illustrations and descriptions is enough to make you weep for the victims and seethe at the enablers of this violence.

[yardwork]

40. But apparently too few have that empathy.

I can't imagine an empathetic person voting for Republicans, but here we are.

[SunSeeker]

44. And people need to see the damage ARs cause compared to guns and hunting rifles.

ARs are designed to turn enemy soldiers' bodies to hamburger so they can't be mended and put back on the battlefield. The bullet comes out much faster than a hunting rifle and travels much further, and when it hits it tumbles through the body, creating a devastating swath of mush rather than a straight line like a regular bullet. As ER doctors have described, when it hits a liver, it liquifies it, it doesn't just put a hole in it.

[hack89]

120. Absolutely wrong

Any 30 caliber hunting round has over twice the impact energy than an AR round - at much greater distances. That is why in some states it is illegal to hunt deer with rifle chambered in 5.56mm - it lacks sufficient killing power.

Hunting rounds are designed to expand and blow massive holes in animals, ensuring a one hit kill. It is a war crime under the Geneva protocols for soldiers to use civilian hunting ammunition.

[Redleg]

126. Excepting the 30-30 Winchester, afaik

The 5.56 has plenty of killing power for humans and the high-capacity magazines make it popular among the nutters.

[SunSeeker]

128. The assault rifle is not your granddad's hunting rifle.

ARs have magazines to hold multiple rounds of ammunition, to allow sustained, uninterrupted firing--something mass shooters need, but hunters don't. And ARs have barrels designed with heat dissipator fins to handle the heat caused by such sustained firing. Hunting rifles aren't designed for sustained firing. Few hunting rifles use ammo magazines, each bullet being loaded into a built-in chamber with limited capacity, and there are no heat dissipating fins on a traditional hunting rifle.

The AR-15 is, by design, easier to shoot accurately and rapidly than a typical hunting rifle because it mitigates recoil. The standard AR-15 bullet carries kinetic energy of 1300 foot pounds. A typical hunting rifle bullet has between 2600 and 4000 foot pounds, meaning it has greater recoil. The excessive recoil of a hunting rifle precludes rapid firing on target, because of the obligatory motion of the gun and its impact on the shooter. But the moderate energy of the AR-15 allows shooting on target literally as rapidly as the trigger can be pulled, while providing ample bullet speed to inflict massive lethal wounds. https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/parkland-shooter-s-ar-15-was-designed-kill-efficiently-possible-ncna848346

You can cherry pick various modern rifles (which are being built more and more like ARs, because gun nuts love them some ARs) and say they have certain features like an assault rifle, but that doesn’t mean assault rifles are hunting rifles or vice versa.

If you are hunting and your goal is to "blow massive holes" in the animal, then you are not really hunting, not for meat anyway. But you do you, hack89.

[hack89]

135. Which is why states have magazine limits for hunting

You do understand that all hunting rounds are hollow point expanding rounds?

Military round must have the lead core completely covered by a hard metal - FMJ means full metal jacket.

It is a war crime to use civilian hunting bullets in war. They are considered inhumane.

[SunSeeker]

170. Oh, so Card turning these people to mush with his AR was "humane"?!

Do you even stop to think before writing that shit?

[hack89]

174. I just hate ignorance

That's all.

[thatdemguy]

158. Ars do not have heat dissipating fins on the barrel. nt

[SunSeeker]

171. Google "heat fins on ar15."

At a minimum, ARs have a bulky heat shield on the barrel to act as a hand guard so that the psycho can just keep on shooting continuously without burning his hands.

[thatdemguy]

172. I just did and

it looks like something someone tried to sell. From a google search for ar15 barrel not one pic shows heat fins. I did just learn that some barrels are fluted for looks and to cut weight. But there is not one barrel I could find with heat fins from the factory, and just because someone tried to sell some gun idiots fins to stick on the barrel, good for trying to make a buck.

But yes they have hand guards and it looks like some have heat shields. But it looks like most of the newer ars have railed hand guards with no heat shield. I wonder how hot they get.

[SunSeeker]

173. How hot do ARs get? Are you channeling Ted Cruz?

https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-politics/ted-cruz-gun-bacon-uvalde-shooting-b2086962.html

[thatdemguy]

175. No but that made me laugh, thanks for that. I mean

that you asked if i was channeling ted cruz... and no.

I meant do the ones with the railed front ends get hotter than the ones with the heat shields. As it looks like most of the newer ones have the rails. I was wondering if it was actually a step backwards or was it better.

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

176. You want gloves for extended fire

Carried a M4 with a quad rail in Iraq. Regular handguards with the aluminum heatshield still got pretty toasty too.

[Tansy_Gold]

51. But not too few here

Post it somewhere where the lack of empathy lies. We don't need snuff porn here on DU.

[Hekate]

63. This

[Retrograde]

64. Photos should be required viewing

for anyone wanting to buy an assault-style weapon. If women wanting an abortion in some places have to view ultrasound images and undergo invasive procedures surely someone who wants a weapon of mass death can look at a few pictures

[TexasDem69]

137. They aren't weapons of mass death

They are semiautomatic rifles like any other semiautomatic rifle.

[MiHale]

27. According to our new SOTH...

Abortions deplete the ‘Abled Bodies’ needed for the job market. Abortion providers should face hard time for providing their services. Sounds like he wants to close down the business.

GUNS, especially automatic weapons deplete the ‘Abled Bodies’ needed immediately in the work force.
Gun factories should be shut down and the owners and sellers of weapons subject to hard time.


Yeah I know…so yell all ya want.

[SunSeeker]

32. ARs turn bodies to hamburger by design.

They are designed to take enemy soldiers off the battlefield and keep them off, leaving gaping, unmendable wounds. The bullet comes out of an AR at a much higher speed than normal rifles or guns, and the bullet tumbles, causing a wide swath of damage rather than a confined bullet hole.

[OAITW r.2.0]

55. A true weapon of war.

Even a small hit is a big hit.

[Kaleva]

56. AR style guns can be chambered to fire a variety of rounds

Even shotgun shells

An example:

https://www.firearmsnews.com/editorial/citadel-boss25-shotgun/472557

[SunSeeker]

61. Mass shooters don't chamber ARs to use shotgun shells.

And FUCK "Firearms News" and its gun porn.

[Kaleva]

72. But you admit you were incorrect about what you claimed

[SunSeeker]

99. Nope, what I said was correct. nt

[Kaleva]

178. One can buy a bolt action rifle designed to fire the same type of bullet

Do you think bolt actions should be banned?

[Act_of_Reparation]

84. That's not accurate.

The muzzle velocity of a 5.56 round isn't higher than "normal" rifles, whatever that may be. A .30-06 round from grampa's M1 Garand is twice as heavy and just as fast, if not faster. The military adopted the 5.56 because its small size and low weight allowed soldiers to carry more ammunition into a fight.

The reason you see this kind of carnage in mass shooting situations because they occur at such a short range. Any rifle round, with the exception of antiquities and rimfires, will cause this kind of damage.

[cab67]

98. Muzzle velocity of an M-1 is 2800 feet/second using rounds available mid-20th century.

It's 3300 feet/second for an AR-15.

Much depends on the cartridge, which is part of the reason finding any sort of average muzzle velocity is difficult - so I'm not claiming the AR-15 has a higher muzzle velocity than other rifles in general.

[Act_of_Reparation]

104. We're not living in the mid 20th century.

You can get .30-06 rounds that push upwards of 3,000 fps at the muzzle.

But muzzle velocity isn't the end-all, be-all, either. When determining how damaging a round is, what you're really looking for is energy transfer... and that's a function of velocity and mass.

I don't think it is controversial to say that most deer hunting calibers, on a shot-by-shot basis, are more damaging than the 5.56.

[sl8]

111. Everything I've seen so far indicates that Card used a .308.

Early reports said it was a .308, later reports suggest that it was a .308 "sniper rifle", although they said that info was preliminary and subject to revision.

[SunSeeker]

103. Wrong. The reason you see this carnage is velocity, amount of bullets, and bullet tumbling.

It's not the short range. It's the speed and amount of bullets. An AR-15, even if fired without a bump stock, can fire about 60 rounds a minute. Ammunition magazines that hold up to 100 rounds can be changed in about five seconds. You can't do that with a traditional hunting rifle. That's why today's mass shooters don't use traditional hunting rifles.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ar-15-mass-shootings-60-minutes-2022-05-29/

[Act_of_Reparation]

107. You were initially talking about the ballistic properties of the 5.56 round.

I am not disputing that the AR-15 can carry more ammunition or be fired faster than "traditional hunting rifles", whatever those are (I'm assuming bolt actions).

I would hasten to add, however, that the AR-15 is not unique as far as semiautomatic rifles go. Any of them can be fired as quickly as one pulls the trigger. I would suspect mass shooters pick them over other available models is that the AR-15 1) easy to find, 2) relatively cheap (most of these guys seem to pick bottom-shelf models), and 3) has acquired a menacing reputation.

[SunSeeker]

112. No, I wasn't talking about a 5.56 round. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

And you are wrong. Assault rifles are uniquely lethal, whether it is the AR-15 or any other copy-cat semiautomatic assault rifle. They are efficient, lightweight weapons of war that allow use of high capacity magazines that fire massive amounts of rounds in seconds at high velocity that tumble when they hit the body, turning it to hamburger. https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/interactive/2023/ar-15-damage-to-human-body/

They have acquired a "menacing reputation" because they ARE menacing, for fuck's sake. Yes, all guns and rifles kill, but assault rifles are designed to pulverize a whole battlefield of soldiers in seconds, yet we're letting the deranged among us buy them to pulverize a bowling alley of teens on Youth Night.

Assault rifle apologia on DU, of all places, it is really nauseating.

There is no legitimate reason for a civilian to own an assault rifle. Find a better hobby.

[TexasDem69]

139. Any rifle with a detachable magazine

Can also accommodate a “high capacity” magazine. It seems like your problem is with the magazine capacity, not the rifle. Or is it both? California is trying to limit magazine size and make detachable magazines illegal, and keeps getting smacked down.

[SunSeeker]

147. It's both.

A lot of great things are being "smacked down" by our loon RWNJ judiciary, like a woman's right to control her own body. That does not make them bad ideas. It means our courts are broken and we have a corrupt, illegitimate SCOTUS with 3 stolen seats.

[TexasDem69]

150. The Supreme Court said that the 2d Amendment

Protected an individual right to own firearms well before any Trump appointee joined the Supreme Court.

[SunSeeker]

159. The 5 RWNJ activist judges who intentionally misread the 2nd Am were all R appointees.

And the 6 RWNJ assholes on the court now are even worse.

Heller was an abomination, yet they're happy to expand it even further. But here you are on DU suggesting it was some sort of decision by the whole Court, instead of the party-line extremist decision by the right wing majority that it was, much like Dobbs.

[TexasDem69]

160. Heller was a reasonable interpretation

Of the 2d Amendment. Not sure where I said “the whole court” joined, just that the Court did. 5-4 or 9-0 the effect is the same. Sorry you didn’t like it. I support every part of the Bill of Rights. That’s a progressive position, not picking and choosing whatever fits your worldview.

And even after Heller just about every restriction you’d like is constitutional, there’s just no political will to pass them.

On edit, of course an outright ban on private ownership of firearms is impermissible after Heller, but no serious individual is calling for that.

[SunSeeker]

163. HELL NO. The 2nd Amendment is about militias to prevent standing armies.

The RWNJ majority completely misread the 2nd Amendment and ignored over 100 years of clear precedent as well as the Founders intent. Don't give me this bullshit that you support the Bill of Rights. If you support the RWNJ SCOTUS majority's desecration of the 2nd Amendment, then you don't support "every part of the Bill of Rights."

[TexasDem69]

165. The right of the "people"

Shall not be infringed. Congress shall make no law prohibiting the right of the people to assemble. The right of the people to be secure in their persons shall not be violated. The “people” in each instance is an individual right. You’re just wrong, and Heller got it right.

What “clear precedent” did the Supreme Court ignore? And you understand the Supreme Court can change its mind, right? That’s why states can no longer criminalize same-sex relationships

[SunSeeker]

166. Read Stevens' Dissent.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZD.html

[Act_of_Reparation]

142. Where exactly did I engage in apologetics?

It's okay. I'll wait.

[SunSeeker]

146. When you implied that ARs are only menacing by "reputation" rather than due to their unique capability.

You said that mass shooters pick ARs because they're "1) easy to find, 2) relatively cheap (most of these guys seem to pick bottom-shelf models), and 3) has acquired a menacing reputation." https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=18403873

You suggest ARs are regular cheap guns who have just gotten a rap, rather than the military killing machines that they are. That is apologia. Apologia is defined as "an apology, as in defense or justification of a belief, idea, etc."

Gee, it couldn't be that mass shooters pick ARs because they are great for mass shooting, no?

[thatdemguy]

162. You should read the link below

https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/lodge/30-06-vs-5-56/

and if you want to see what both do to a gel block to see the massive difference in what they do watch the below video. It should start just under 4 mins as the guy is annoying as hell. The ar round looks ugly at first, but you need to see what the 30.06 does compared to it.

?si=N6dX8v5LZOyIrczF&t=235

[Takket]

36. yeah but the government might oppress me.......

so, that takes precedence.

[AllaN01Bear]

37. thank you u$ $tuprime ct. . next time read the whole thing about a regulated millitia .

[Rhiannon12866]

38. Same as Uvalde, they will need to use DNA tests to identify victims

[spanone]

53. K&R

[milestogo]

54. If you've ever heard a trauma surgeon talk about trying to take care of the victims

you'll get the idea. Surgery cannot put back together what these guns tear apart. And the doctors are traumatized by seeing it. Other than doctors and first responders, most people never have to see the destruction.

[malaise]

59. Yes

It destroys trauma workers in hospitals

[Retrograde]

65. Calling Judge Ho

the guy who claimed doctors feel “an aesthetic joy” by seeing ultrasounds of fetuses - by that “logic” shouldn’t their potential trauma on seeing the victims mean these weapons should be outlawed?

Yeah, I’m trying to apply logic to Republican judges

[Irish_Dem]

101. A child's body is blown apart with assault rifles.

You cannot put it back together.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

57. This is why we all need to see exactly what destruction these guns cause.

No more pretending that the gun shots are like what you see in movies from the 1950s. What actually happens is far beyond what most people understand. Part of what made Americans turn against the war in Vietnam was seeing what was actually happening there in the evening news.

Maybe, but I don't hold out much hope, this particular mass murder will finally change things about guns.

[WhiteTara]

58. It's time to put this on the evening news

every single time. That was what ended the Vietnam War...nightly views of dead bodies.

[Justice]

66. Essential reading this NYT piece recounting Sandy Hook scene with victims

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/20/magazine/sandy-hook-mass-shooting-scenes.html?unlocked_article_code=1.5kw.N24h.Nl6N7r3sVqGJ&smid=url-share

Unlocked NYT article about a detective and two crime-scene investigators for the Connecticut State Police who worked on Sandy Hook scene. I won't ever be the same after reading this article recounting what these individuals saw at the school but forced myself to read the entire piece out of respect for the victims and their families.

[malaise]

71. Agree

Rec

[Old Crank]

68. Show the pictures of the carnage

It might help turn the tide.
But I would worry about some gun owners saying wow perfect....

[kimbutgar]

91. Agree

People need to see what assault weapons do to innocent people. And then ask if these weapons are not outlawed you , your family or friends could be the next victim. Scare the crap out of people to make them come to their senses about these weapons of war unregulated in the hands of lunatics.

[Windicator]

70. The GOP's curse on Americans

[randr]

74. Pictures of the carnage must be shown

The American public needs to witness the reality of what these weapons are all about.
Too bad if they are offended. The graphic photo of Emmett Till changed the world.

[inthewind21]

129. And

the graphic photo of Emmett Till REQUIRED the consent of his mother. You can't just go splashing around the photos of dead people, especially kids, out into the public domain without permission of the parents/family.

So let me ask this, knowing what we know about how the parents of the Sandy Hook kids were relentlessly harassed, you ready to demand the parents/family be subjected to not only the assured harassment from the gun nuts and conspiracy nuts but to FOREVER have to repeatedly see those horrific photos out there over and over and over as they have them constantly emailed to them, have their house wallpapered with them, get them in the mail etc.? Because in 2023 you KNOW, or should know, that is EXACTLY what will happen.

p.s. Did the photos of Till "change the world" really? Till was murdered in 1956. Lynchings still occurred in Mississippi until 1968 "officially" but happened as late as 2000.

[muriel_volestrangler]

76. 9 out of the 18 have been publicly named

https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/lewiston-maine-mass-shootings-victims/

[underpants]

77. There was a corn hole tournament for the deaf at the bar?

I didn’t know that

[muriel_volestrangler]

78. I had to look up what "cornhole" is; Inside Edition says Card played it at the bar

so he may have targetted them (not necessarily the deaf, I suppose):

On edit: perhaps he had been at this cornhole tournament before, and knew his victims:

She said that Robert Card recently began wearing powerful hearing aids to combat hearing loss. Since then, Card said her brother-in-law has been insisting to his family that he can hear people bashing him—including at Just-In-Time Recreation bowling alley and Schemengees Bar and Grill, where he’s accused of gunning down 18 people on Wednesday night.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/family-reveals-suspected-gunman-robert-cards-link-to-maine-massacre-sites

[KS Toronado]

88. Down you go.

[SunSeeker]

168. LOL, yup. Another ammo-sexual troll from the anus of the internet.

They can't help themselves, like moths to a flame.

[lapfog_1]

89. it is possible

that they should video the scene after one of these sorts of mass shootings, including the little kids shot with AR-15s to the point where their bodies are exploded. And then broadcast it. Just once.

Yes it would be horrible...

Maybe so horrible that people will get so angry that they vote the gun lovers out of office.

I understand it would be catnip to the sickos that love snuff porn. But nothing else seems to work, maybe we should try this to get these sorts of weapons banned.

[cab67]

94. Let's be careful with our terminology.

I'm with all of you - firearms like the AR-15 do not fill a civilian need nd should be banned. No one needs such a weapon.

But for what it's worth, the AR-15 and similar weapons are not assault rifles. They're assault-style rifles.

The difference? An actual assault rifle like the M-16 or AK-47 can be fired in automatic mode. The AR-15 is semiautomatic only - unless it's been altered, it cannot fire in fully automatic mode.

I bring this up only because some gun nuts I know like to point out errors in the claims made by rational-minded individuals, whose claims are then dismissed as reflecting ignorance. MIstakes in terminology are, of course, marginal to the issue at hand - there are way too many guns out there, some of them have no legitimate civilian purpose, and it's far too easy for one person to kill large numbers of people before anyone can do anything about it. But no matter how trivial an error might be, it can be weaponized.

Like I said - I'm only making a semantic point about terminology, not disagreeing with your overall conclusion. Semiautomatic assault-style rifles, even if not capable of automatic fire, still enable mass shootings - they can be fired at a rapid rate, they can take a high-capacity magazine, and the caliber and muzzle velocity of the bullet causes far more grievous injuries than would be caused by the average hunting rifle. If we can't abolish these weapons (and I would like to see that happen), we should at least do what we can to limit access to high-capacity magazines and bump stocks. (Unfortunately, the USSC stupidly overturned a California ban on high-capacity clips a few years back.)

We can actually use this distinction to our advantage when dealing with gun fetishists. They keep saying the right to bear arms cannot be infringed, but in fact, that right has always been "infringed," and nearly everyone is cool with it. Depending on your jurisdiction, ownership of certain types of firearms is already banned or tightly regulated - sawed-off shotguns, machine guns, and assault rifles (as opposed to assault-style rifles) are examples. The question isn't "should we ban guns?"; it's "which guns should we ban?"

[nitpicked]

106. And "who should we restrict"?

Age? Who knows?

It could be argued that non-assault guns should have graduated licenses (like driver's permits/licenses), with retests/relicensing for those over a certain age (again like Virginia) (where someone I know just barely flunked the vision test at age 80+).

Or those who have had encounters with mental health (dis)services? What would put someone on any red/yellow list??

It's all above my paygrade anyhow.

And would it be invading someone's privacy to know where they put their weapons?

[LymphocyteLover]

110. No. The gunsplaining crap is not appropriate here.

[SunSeeker]

114. +1. Happens every time anyone dares mention ARs.

It's disgusting.

[cab67]

117. so.....

.....I agree fully that weapons such as the AR-15 should be banned, but because I make a point about terminology, my comment is disgusting? Really?

In no way was I defending the ownership of such weapons.

[SunSeeker]

118. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.

But getting all picky about terminology shuts down a conversation or results in turning it so bland you don't know what people are talking about. It's gotten so bad that the media are afraid to say "assault rifle" because internet gun trolls say just the sort of stuff you posted. So now news stories report that the shooter used a "long gun," or even more meaningless, "firearm." Invariably, in mass shootings like this, where there is enough dead people to fill an emergency room, it was a fucking ASSAULT RIFLE. The fact that we can't say that without the gunsplaining is disgusting. Maybe that was not your intent with your post, but that is the result.

[cab67]

122. What you describe was the opposite of my intent.

I want to keep the conversation going, and like I said, I don't think anyone needs an assault-style rifle. But such weapons are not assault rifles. I'm not just talking about how gun manufacturers label their products, either - the distinction is also legal. Rifles that can be fired in automatic mode are classified as assault rifles, and many jurisdictions ban or restrict them. Rifles that can't be fired in automatic mode are classified as assault style rifles, and unfortunately, most jurisdictions still allow individuals to buy and own them.

I respectfully disagree that pointing to a terminological problem stops an argument. That's because it doesn't really impact the argument itself. Whether the AR-15 and similar weapons are assault or assault style rifles, they shouldn't be in civilian hands. If people are put off when terminological points are made, that's on them.

Suppose someone argues that we should protect endangered fish such as whales. If I point out that whales aren't fish, I'm saying nothing about the need to protect them (which is very real). It's precisely the same thing.

Using the wrong term can be weaponized against us in a debate. I've seen it happen.

[SunSeeker]

131. Your definition of assault rifle as only those with "automatic mode" is much too narrow.

The gunsplaining absolutely does shut down debate.

[inthewind21]

132. As does

Incorrect claims when trying to get others to listen and take seriously a plea about guns as you make several inaccurate claims.

[TexasDem69]

138. How would you define assault rifle?

[SunSeeker]

143. The definition in the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban works for me.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban

[cab67]

167. It's not my definition.

It’s the definition used in the courts and in legislation.

[Denvermosaic]

96. It is totally insane this carnage continues to occur

and some law makers choose to show ineptitude on these weaponry of war

[Blue Owl]

105. And the GOP proudly wears little lapel pins of these instruments of slaughter

What a bunch of sick fucks is all I can say....

[malaise]

108. THIS

The truth

[LymphocyteLover]

109. I know it's controversial but we need to show these images to wake people the fuck up

[IronLionZion]

113. An armed society is a polite society

when everyone is dead. No good guys with guns stopped this mass shooting in a heavily armed red part of a rural state.

[TheRealNorth]

119. They only bring out their guns.....

When they need to shoot some squirrels or intimidate some Libs.

[Initech]

115. Fuck you Alex Jones. Fuck you to the hottest of hells.

This wouldn't have happened if the shooter hadn't gone down the right wing conspiracy theory wormhole. Another mind warped by far right propaganda which resulted in lots of lives being lost unnecessarily. Truly sickening. And a lot of this can be attributed to the world's sleaziest gun salesman: Alex Jones.

[sl8]

121. What's the source for this?

All I've seen in the news is that the names have not been released by authorities yet. I haven't seen anything that says the authorities are having difficulty identifying the bodies.

Various news sources have identified 11(?) victims, by talking to their families.

[inthewind21]

123. Who knows

But I head a few hours ago all 18 have been identified.

https://apnews.com/article/maine-shooting-victims-1be7d14e90ef6c91ca23819163d29f3e

[sl8]

125. Thank you. That article only lists 9, though. nt

[inthewind21]

133. They

are right now showing photos of and naming all of the victims.

[Aussie105]

140. A repeating pattern.

Sequence:

1. A mass shooting.

2. Public shock and horror.

3. The usual discussion about possible motivation/mental health problems suffered by the shooter.

4. Side discussion about guns - as per some posts above.

5. 'Thoughts and prayers' from talking heads on TV and politicians.

6. Grief and funerals.

Fast forward 2 weeks, and all is forgotten - back to thinking guns are ok and allowed by the Constitution, and that America is a safe and nice place to live. (There is your problem right there, America.)

7. Back to step one. The body count keeps going up. Nothing changes, nothing achieved.

May I suggest:

a. Debunk the 'right to bear arms' by taking the historical context of that into consideration. You know, the 'well ordered militia' part, not having a standing Army, muzzle loaders not AR15s, possible invasion my English troops.

b. Declare America to be a very unsafe place for the average American.

c. Point the finger squarely at all the guns out there.

d. Make sales of guns and ammo illegal, public open/concealed carry goes out, only police, serving law enforcement on active duty can carry, no one else. Perhaps farmers with a feral pig problem can own guns, but only after some serious checks.

e. Close gun shops, their manufacture, sales to civilians. Buyback scheme.

f. Any gun out in public gets pounced on and confiscated.

The alternative of the do-nothing approach is the sequence of 1 to 7 above. Do you really want that?

[sl8]

145. These are the victims of the Lewiston, Maine, mass shootings

https://www.wmtw.com/article/victims-lewiston-maine-mass-shootings/45656677

These are the victims of the Lewiston, Maine, mass shootings

Updated: 5:32 PM EDT Oct 27, 2023

LEWISTON, Maine — All 18 of the people who died in a mass shooting in Maine have been identified.

The 16 males and two females killed Wednesday night ranged in age from 14 to 76, officials said Friday.

According to Maine State Police, seven people died at Just-In-Time Recreation bowling alley and eight more died at Schemengees Bar and Grille. Three others died after being taken to hospitals.

The victims include:

[...]

[malaise]

151. Thanks n/t

[Aussie105]

153. 18 people went out their front doors

and never came back.

That is the most important detail.

[usonian]

177. Kick this forever.

Do you remember 2012?

https://www.ctpost.com/local/article/Some-gun-rights-advocates-think-again-4154617.php

Some have changed positions altogether, calling for an assault weapons ban and more extensive background checks. Others have been moved to speak out against a gun-rights movement unwilling to accept any form of control as illustrated by National Rifle Association head Wayne LaPierre's Dec. 21 response to the shooting, in which he called for armed guards in schools and blamed mass killings on Hollywood and video game makers.

Crickets. Unless .....

[malaise]

179. Is there any data on how many of these murderers kill themselves

when cornered.
I wonder why they just don’t kill themselves PERIOD

[usonian]

181. You bring up a rather deep question.

In my philosophy, killing others is killing oneself.

In "If Life is a Game, These are the Rules", Cherie Carter-Scott says:

OTHERS ARE ONLY MIRRORS OF YOU
You cannot love or hate something about another person unless it reflects something you love or hate about yourself.


Hate and self-despising are taught, but that's a deeper issue.
So, to me, numbers would just reflect the extent of this misconception, and I don't have any, but there may be some out there.
Of course, a "suicide mission" just makes someone else (i.e. police) responsible, which compounds the delusion.

[malaise]

182. A seriously thoughtful response

What a mess

[akbacchus_BC]

180. More than insane, it is effing genocide. The atrocities against people of colour is unbelievable!