IMPORTANT: The Latest Discussions link at the top & bottom of every page does NOT go to the home page. There should be a link to the home page.

[highplainsdem]

I just discovered this problem - not having a link to the home page where it existed in DU1-3 - has been causing a lot of confusion, and that's because it does not follow typical message board style.

If you look at General Discussion - https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1002 - you will see links for Latest Discussions and General Discussion at the top and bottom of every page.

What you will NOT see is the clearly identified text link to the home page that was there in every earlier version of DU and is standard with message boards.

It's important to restore it.

Not having it there has led some people here to believe DU has no home page, or Latest Discussions is supposed to be the home page.

They blame themselves for getting confused, but the confusion is caused by the very strange absence of a text link crucial to message boards.

I just used the Wayback Machine to look back at General Discussion pages from 2004, 2010, and earlier this month with DU3.

It does look as though DU has always included a link to Latest Threads in the set of navigation links at the top and bottom of every page. Which is unusual, and I don't know why it's there.

But DU has also ALWAYS had that set of links arranged following a first link saying Lobby (the original design) or Home.

2004 (this set of links says Lobby instead of home):
https://web.archive.org/web/20040704064514/http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=104

2010, DU2 (this version says Home, and this is slightly different because none of those links say Latest, but clicking on Discuss took you to an index of forums with Latest Threads below them):
https://web.archive.org/web/20100627091736/http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=389

DU3, several days ago - link to DU Home at the start of those links:
https://web.archive.org/web/20231016064604/https://democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1002

Again, I don't understand why that prominent a link to Latest threads was considered important.

But a text link to Home - placed BEFORE the link to Latest - is a navigation necessity.

[TygrBright]

1. The link to the Home Page is at the top of every page. Just click on "Democratic Underground". n/t

[highplainsdem]

2. Every message board I've used, and I used a lot of them and was an admin with

a vBulletin board for years, ALSO has text links to the home page for navigation.

Every earlier version of DU had them.

They need to be there.

This design is causing too much unnecessary confusion.

[muriel_volestrangler]

30. Every board I've used, and I've been a moderator on more than one, links the main name

to the home page, just like DU does, and did.

[highplainsdem]

31. And they use simple, unmistakable text links as well and don't rely on

people clicking a banner or logo.

As DU did for two decades, until this latest version.

And the people using those text links had absolutely no reason to click on the logo to get to the Home page.

So it isn't at all surprising that many of them weren't aware it was also a link.

The only thing surprising here was the decision to drop both those text links, while keeping that line for Latest Discussions, when it would have been perfectly simple and not at all distracting to put the text link Home in front of Latest Discussions.

That surprising decision is what's caused this confusion.

DU's users should not be blamed.

[muriel_volestrangler]

33. I'm not blaming DU's users; I'm just pointing out this is not IMPORTANT

as your title put it. I think several other people see it as not important as well.

[highplainsdem]

36. It might not be important to YOU. It's extremely important to all the people

who haven't been able to reach the Home page because the clear and very helpful text links they were using have inexplicably vanished.

[Happy Hoosier]

47. Nah, they don't IMO.

Clicking the site logo for the home page is pretty standard design practice. They are dragging this website into the modern era. We should not perpetuate ancient design tropes.

[DemocraticPatriot]

23. THIS !!!!

That is pretty standard on every website who knows what they are doing....

click the site title graphic and that takes you to the home page, usually on the top left....

[highplainsdem]

3. And btw, although having a banner or logo as a link to the home page is

also standard, that's only at the top of the page, and it's a design problem not to have text links to Home at the top and bottom of the page. Those links to Home are much more important than the links to Latest and should be easy for everyone to find.

[patricia92243]

4. I didn't know we had a Home Page anymore. I thought the big Democratic Underground was just

a sign showing the name of this board not an actual link to the Home Page. I think 90% of people think the same thing.

[highplainsdem]

7. DU4 has been causing way too much confusion for users, and it is NOT the fault

of the users.

It isn't because they're resistant to change, or clueless, or too old - as too many DUers who like DU4 for various reasons have insultingly alleged.

It's because the design had some basic problems and it's difficult to navigate and find what you want.

The admins made some changes that were improvements but lost too much that was important in a radical new design.

But that's the sort of thing that's always hard to catch when you're evaluating your own work.

They needed more feedback. We needed a longer beta test (beta tests can often last several months). And I'm kicking myself for not having spent more time on DU4 during the short beta test. I should have spotted some of these problems earlier. But I had a lot to do and DU3 is much easier to use, so I was on DU3 most of the time.

I think these problems can still be fixed.

But no one should blame users for their having problems with DU4. That needs to stop.

[Tumbulu]

21. Yes, I had to ask in a number of threads

and kind people shared that tidbit. But how would I have ever figured it out?

[sinkingfeeling]

49. All was revealed in EarlG's posts to all of us prior to the move to DU4.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/125622741

Main site navigation
Site navigation is now split into two sections: The "Navigate" button at the top left takes you to all the public areas of the site, whereas the "My Stuff" button at the top right takes you to your personal pages. (When you are not logged in, the "My Stuff" button will say "Sign in" and will take you to the sign in/create new account page.) Clicking the site logo takes you to the home page. On most layouts the top navigation bar remains onscreen at all times, so you can get anywhere in a few clicks.

Short cuts and tips are here.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/125622741

[RockRaven]

5. Like the big DU in the middle of the top of every page?

[highplainsdem]

6. That is NOT an adequate replacement for the standard text links.

Not. Even. Close.

[RockRaven]

8. It says "DU" and goes to democraticunderground dot com slash index

And after experimentally clicking it once, one has confirmed that it goes to where intuition would expect it to go... So it's pretty darn close if not perfectly adequate, IMO.

But mileage varies on that one, apparently.

[highplainsdem]

10. If it were adequate, the earlier versions of DU would not have

had those text links to the home page at the top and bottom of every page.

And you would NOT have messages like reply 4 here.

Or all the other messages that have been posted by people who, not surprisingly, found a VERY confusing board design confusing.

We needed a.much longer beta test to catch all of these problems.

And much more time to see if a radical change aimed at those using phones to reach DU has actually helped most of that target audience. Apparently it isn't helping a lot of them.

[RockRaven]

19. Well, "DU" *is* text, & the link is MORE omnipresent as a upper screen banner

-- which remains on screen no matter how far up or down one scrolls -- than it used to be at the top and bottom of each page in the message board style.

Once one knows that the DU icon links to the home page, the ease of use of the link to the home page is superior to the prior version. The home page link thing is a communication issue perhaps, but even if that it is a temporary/transient one, not one which requires reversion.

From an aesthetic and overall ease of site use standpoint, I happen to think the prior version was superior. But your initial complaint of the lack of a home page link is just off the mark, IMO, because it is pretty standard (has been for a long while now) for site logos to be home page links.

[highplainsdem]

20. So I guess you think all the earlier versions of DU were dumb compared to

this one offering only the logo as the link. And only at the top of the page.

Since it's only at the top of the page, using the logo is anything but superior to the text links.

Yes, it's standard to use the logo as well as text links. But using only the logo and getting rid of both text links is like removing two legs from a three-legged stool and saying the design is superior.

[RockRaven]

24. You are certainly free to guess and speculate and assume anything you like

about what I think rather than just taking my words as written, whenever the impulse seizes you, but in this case you would be incorrect.

And as point of clarification the "DU" logo isn't at the top of the page but at the top of the screen, on my device/OS/browser anyway (and I assume many others though perhaps not all), which means it is never out of clicking range no matter how far I scroll, which is why I called it omnipresent and therefore superior in availability to prior version.

[highplainsdem]

27. Okay. Point taken about that banner at the top being omnipresent. But it still

doesn't negate the need for a text link when there are already lines of text links where Home would fit - and since one is in the banner, a clear text Home link would also be omnipresent.

And honestly, the huge omnipresent banner takes up way too much space on the screen, compared to a standard banner that doesn't move and the appropriate text links.

[patricia92243]

29. Mine does not stay at top or bottom. I am on PC. n/t

[Celerity]

12. +10000000000000000

[Emrys]

11. In my experience, it's pretty standard for the name banner of a forum, blog etc.

to lead to the home page if clicked. DU follows that standard. I don't recall it being any different in DU3.

ETA: There's even a tooltip that reads "Democratic Underground Home" that pops up if you've enabled tooltips and hover your mouse over the banner.

[highplainsdem]

13. Sigh. One more time. It's standard to have text links to the home

page at the top and bottom of every page, and earlier versions of DU did that.

Omitting that is a serious design problem, and inexplicable when you have the other text links that were in the similar set of links for the past 20 years here.

It's not like there's no room for the Home text link.

[Emrys]

15. Please don't sigh at me.

See my other reply below. You misread the archive page you linked.

What we have now is standard, as it was on DU3.

[highplainsdem]

18. See my reply 16. Those DU Home links, in the lines of links at the top

and bottom of the board - with DU Home the first link, before Latest Threads - are working hyperlinks and go to this page:

https://web.archive.org/web/20231016063707/https://democraticunderground.com/index.php

Both links work perfectly.

I have no idea why you had trouble with them.

[Emrys]

14. OK, my memory isn't failing me

In your OP, you wrote:

DU3, several days ago - link to DU Home at the start of those links:
https://web.archive.org/web/20231016064604/https://democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1002

The text reading "DU Home" on that archive page is not a hyperlink. Try hovering over it and/or clicking it. Nothing happens, it's just a label indicating that what's onscreen is actually the DU home page. The Democratic Underground.com banner above it is clickable, just like it is on DU4.

[highplainsdem]

16. Yes, it is a hyperlink. I just clicked that DU Home link at both the

top and bottom of the page, and both work. They always have.

[Emrys]

17. Not on my system it isn't!

I just did again exactly what I suggested you do. "DU Home" there at page top left is just text, not a hyperlink. There's a tab for "Home" and others for a bunch of other stuff, but that's all changed in DU4, and we just have the two tabs for "Navigate" and "My Stuff", which lead to the other options if clicked.

But if you neverthless want to insist it's a hyperlink, go ahead, it's not going to keep me awake at night.

[highplainsdem]

22. Emrys, you are mistakenly clicking the link for the page I said the DU Home

link on that DU3 General Duscussion Page goes to.

The General Discussion page is

https://web.archive.org/web/20231016064604/https://democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1002

and there the DU Home links before Latest Threads are both working hyperlinks that will take you to the Home page at

https://web.archive.org/web/20231016063707/https://democraticunderground.com/index.php

where the DU Home text in the gray banner, in the upper left corner, is clearly not just plain text but the ONLY text on that line.

[highplainsdem]

25. Again, go to this page, the first page of GD that moment earlier this month:

https://web.archive.org/web/20231016064604/https://democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1002

Look for the lines of links, top and bottom, that have DU Home and Latest Threads as the first two links (the following links. are different at the top and bottom of the page).

All of those are working links.

[highplainsdem]

32. Did you try the links on the archived GD page, instead on clicking on

what is clearly not a link on the archived home page?

[Emrys]

35. No, I've been attending to a post of mine on Editorials & Other Articles,

having some sleep and dealing with some real-life stuff.

You're concerned about this issue in terms of DU4, I'm much more concerned with trying to persuade EarlG of the wisdom of reinstating a standalone “My Posts” button, the lack of which and the lack of a specific visual alert whenever there’s a reply to a post constantly hamper ease of use of the forum. Have at it.

But EarlG did indicate that if we have bug reports or feature requests, we should post them on DU Community Help. I've done that about the "My Posts" button and received several replies from EarlG (though I doubt I'm prsuading him!). Maybe if you did as he's asked, you might also get a response from him.

[highplainsdem]

37. I knew the logo was a link. But not having the text links to the home page

has been a "constantly hamper ease of use of the forum" issue for the DUers that I posted this OP for.

Lots of people are running into different problems here (though I suspect a Sent mail folder that shows only your name as the sender and not the names of any of the people you sent mail to is a problem for everyone).

They all need attention, and the problems all need to be fixed asap.

I agree completely about it being important to have the separate types of notifications appear in separate tabs on each board page.

[Emrys]

38. I guess it depends on how people enter the forum each time.

I use a bookmark directly to General Discussion, as that usually has the meat of what I want to see immediately on DU. I don't know how others arrange things, but I'd guess some of them use a link directly to the home page.

Anyway, I think anyone reading this OP and the replies knows what you think about it by now, so it's maybe not a good use of time to persist in discussing it. I have a deadline to meet, so I'll be focusing on that.

EarlG has said they have a longish list of revisions that's building up. It's anyone's guess which of the more optional ones that aren't actually bugs may be remedied, but I bet there's more chance of an issue being addressed if it's raised as an OP on DU Community Help: https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1256

[highplainsdem]

40. Well, if you can find a few seconds to click on those text links you said weren't links,

I'd be interested in hearing about what happens.

[Emrys]

41. Nope. Paid work calls. n/t

[highplainsdem]

44. And I have company coming, and wish there weren't all these problems with DU4

that others have been posting about and I'm trying to help them with.

[highplainsdem]

39. And btw, I'm posting in GD because the people having trouble getting to

the home page deserve to know their confusion is because the standard links they're used to are missing.

And everyone needs to know that the Sent folder is messed up and currently shows only your name as sender and none of the recipients' names, so people should put the recipient's name in the header till that problem is fixed.

Posting in Community Help would not get those messages out to most DUers.

[Emrys]

43. Posting on Community Help might get you more recs than 3.

My little post there quite quickly got 6 plus EarlG's attention.

This thread has been up on GD now for long enough that anyone who's interested has probably seen it already. For whatever reason, EarlG either hasn't seen it among the usual GD clutter or hasn't chosen to chime in here, so maybe doing as he's asked might get some sort of result.

[highplainsdem]

45. So I'll post a link to it in Community Help later, if he misses it here.

I don't care about recs.

I care about people having problems with DU4 that are in no way their fault.

And you have a lot of time for replies here when your deadline won't let you test two text links you insisted weren't links.

[Emrys]

46. I cited recs as a measure of interest and approval, perhaps even visibility, not any measure of kudos.

I take breaks from work, and chose to use this one to take a look at DU, and my "Posts" button was lit up.

I've offered a suggestion about how you might actually get some action on this consuming issue. If you choose not to take that in the spirit it was offered, it's no skin off my nose.

Not that I have to justify myself to you as I'm not at your beck and call. I'll refrain from bumping your OP from now on, then. Next step, ignore list.

[DemocraticPatriot]

26. So you are demanding several links to that new home page, which you hate?

You're getting a little out of control here. Take a chill pill... have a drink or two...

[highplainsdem]

28. No. I am saying the two standard text links to the Home page used

on DU for the last two decades should be restored because DU4's design problems are causing confusion.

See reply 4 above.

And see this thread

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218385502

and there have been lots of other messages the last few days about this.

So take a chill pill yourself.

[honest.abe]

48. +1

IMPORTANT!!

[edisdead]

34. Man I wish I had this much time in my life.

This is nauseating.

Every website just about the logo at the top of the page brings you to the homepage. Including every on I have ever developed.

[highplainsdem]

42. The only reason this thread is as long as it is now is that some people

apparently don't care that other DUers have been having problems because the text links they're used to are missing - and missing for no real reason.

[sinkingfeeling]

50. See post #49. Apparently lots of users failed to read the DU4 information provided by EarlG.