Hamas are the bad guys in this. Full stop.

[RandySF]

They massacred hundreds of people at a music festival. They recorded themselves going house to house shooting and taking hostages (kids, elderly, men and women). And now they promise to kill hostages in cold blood if the Israeli retaliates.

There's no both sides. Hamas just blew up the world's empathy for the Palestinians' plight and brought a world of pain on themselves and the people they claom to represent.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

1. Speaking truth to power.

[Marius25]

2. Yup, you're correct. Sadly a lot of people hate Jews so much they're willing to defend Hamas

[onecaliberal]

6. NO ONE here is defending Hamas, stop sayng it.

[ripcord]

9. No they are just saying Israel can't retaliate against Hamas

[RockRaven]

10. Can you point a curious party to specific posts saying that? Thanks in advance. eom

[uponit7771]

15. False, people aren't just going let a MIC conflate Palestinians with HAMAS

Link to tweet

?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1711440875706884125%7Ctwgr%5E5c38e007f4505d0922b010bb28e3b50889f87f23%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2F100218346767

[stopdiggin]

25. Not saying that either.

but there are an awful lot of strawmen being tossed out.

[Marius25]

11. I disagree.

[onecaliberal]

13. Show me.

[Cha]

18. I've seen "BOTH SIDES" Until I'm

Sick to pieces of the fucking saying.

It's NOT BOTH SIDES when FUCKING Cowardly EVIL Monsters HAMAS has Attacked Israel with the Caragage they've Laid Waste.

[wackadoo wabbit]

33. Yes! Exactly! . . . n/t

[Happy Hoosier]

28. I have seen lotsa "Bothsides"

I haven’t seen anyone here directly defending Hamas, but I have seen plenty of people making false equivalencies.

Israel has done much to criticize. But nothing like this.

[onecaliberal]

30. Angrychair said it best.

Fuck Hamas. They are terrorists, not leaders. They are what the Republican party wants to be: ruling though violence, bribes and blackmail.

Here is the logic in cutting off the power, water and food to Gaza, that, eventually, people will revolt against Hamas. Well over half are children, 40% are 15 or younger. The vast majority of the population are either very young or old. There is not going to a mass rebellion in Gaza. It's a lie.

By cutting off supplies the only thing that will happen, best case, is hundreds of thousands of children die and Hamas is still there.

[sarisataka]

32. Yesterday different posters told me the slaughter

At the concert was an act of "self-defense" by Hamas. When I asked if they should at the least be condemned for the cold blooded executions of children, the reply was Israel should have expected a "cost" for their policies.

If people cannot condemn a mass shooting of civilians in Israel or the deliberate execution of children, that is defending the perpetrators in my book. YMMV.

[obamanut2012]

62. I am getting really fed up with certain posters' accusations

It is scurrilous.

[stopdiggin]

27. Not happening.

Been on this board all day, and the condemnation is almost totally universal. You have your own peculiar slant going here.

[Marius25]

29. It's not just this board. There are left-wing, Free Palestine rallies going on globally

where they're chanting "Gas the Jews!"

[stopdiggin]

53. I'm talking about this board

and so are the rest of the people here.

[obamanut2012]

64. Link to any DUer saying "Gas the Jews"

[obamanut2012]

63. Well said

[calimary]

43. Okay, I'll say it: I Do Not Understand what the problem is with the Jews.

What is it that some people hate them for? What did they do? I don't get it. I never have.

I do NOT understand what the deal is.

[Caliman73]

75. There aren't any valid reasons to "hate the Jews".

Historically, Jewish people have been maligned because of the spread of Christianity brought with it the "blood libel" which falsely stated that Jewish people killed Christian babies for a ritual including bathing in or drinking their blood. Jews were blamed for killing Jesus Christ as well. During the prominence of the Christian Church, some Jewish families were able to become somewhat rich and powerful through banking and becoming merchants because Christians had laws against "Usery" or lending with interest. Many Christian leaders had Jewish people handling the finances to get around those laws, but resented the power that came with the job, so they would regularly expel Jews from the country or kill them with Pogroms. Jewish people tended to live in communities and adhere to their own customs, in response to the targeting, which just made them more of a target by "leaders" who were paranoid about subjects living within their rule who were not 100% subjugated.

Many historical factors (and many many falsehoods) painted targets on Jewish people for persecution.

I personally think that the Israeli Government has done a lot of harm to the Palestinian people and of course there is historical animosity between the groups since the creation of the State of Israel.

I think that what Hamas did is horrific, and has no justification. I think that some people are equating Hamas' attacks with the suffering and conditions in Palestine. Like I said, the ultra-conservative governments in Israel over the last few decades have certainly helped to create conditions of suffering for the Palestinian people, but that doesn't justify Hamas attacking civilians and taking hostages.

Some people have a deep seeded and irrational hatred of Jewish people which is likely driving their views on this situation.

[calimary]

79. Thank you. I kinda knew that but you presented it beautifully, and reminded me of a few things.

Last edited Thu Oct 12, 2023, 07:02 PM - Edit history (1)

And I think I keep asking, not only to hear people's reasons for it or explanations against it, but to try to expose the totally incomprehensible rationales of some of the details you mentioned. So much of it seems, at least to me, a matter of being really adamant about cutting off your own nose to spite your face because maybe you think the view of it'll offend people you don't like.

But there are many aspects and fine points that I genuinely don't understand. And btw, I spent 14 years in Catholic school (including pre-kinder and kindergarten), and in two states that were geographically and ideologically some distance from each other. None of those nuns and lay teachers brought up anything anti-Semitic involving what limited studies we had of the Jewish state. For me that continued through college - no racism, no weirdness about other religions or skin colors or anything. And even in those early days, very little sexism when that term wasn't widely used or recognized. Or maybe I just went to a university where things were more highly-evolved, especially for that time (early 70s). It took me a long time to wrap my brain around what anti-Semitism was. And while I know WHAT it is, I don't know WHY it is.

I just don't get it. I still don't get it. Maybe because of the effort I put in, on myself, trying to get over holding grudges. Especially the stupid and ancient ones. It's hard when it involves certain people, and I fight myself on it, constantly. Your last several paragraphs really nail it.

Many historical factors (and many many falsehoods) painted targets on Jewish people for persecution.

I personally think that the Israeli Government has done a lot of harm to the Palestinian people and of course there is historical animosity between the groups since the creation of the State of Israel.

I think that what Hamas did is horrific, and has no justification. I think that some people are equating Hamas' attacks with the suffering and conditions in Palestine. Like I said, the ultra-conservative governments in Israel over the last few decades have certainly helped to create conditions of suffering for the Palestinian people, but that doesn't justify Hamas attacking civilians and taking hostages.

Some people have a deep seeded and irrational hatred of Jewish people which is likely driving their views on this situation.

"Irrational" sure nails it.

[TiberiusB]

45. Links?

Who's defending Hamas?

[Frasier Balzov]

3. Bad public relations coaching by the Islamic Revolutionary Guard.

[GP6971]

4. Kicked. n/t

[sheshe2]

5. Thank you, Randy.

[uponit7771]

7. False, I can separate Russians from KaPutin, America from MAGA and Palestinians from Hamas ...

... the people of Palestine have not chosen Hamas

[AZSkiffyGeek]

12. That's exactly what the people in Gaza did

Look up who they elected when given the chance.

[uponit7771]

14. This is bullshit MIC, why repeat it here on DU as if we're LIV? (link)

Link to tweet

?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1711440875706884125%7Ctwgr%5E5c38e007f4505d0922b010bb28e3b50889f87f23%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2F100218346767

[AZSkiffyGeek]

16. Who won that election?

[uponit7771]

19. 17 years ago and doesn't reflect Palestinians today? Hamas

[AZSkiffyGeek]

26. You said they didn't choose Hamas

When they were given the choice, they absolutely did.
Yes, it was 17 years ago. How does that negate their choice? Hamas is still running the show in Gaza, and there seemed to be a lot of Palestinians around the world cheering them on over the weekend.
I do not think all Palestinians are Hamas. But at least in Gaza, I don’t believe they are as hated as some think.

[TiberiusB]

46. And Americans selected Trump

So all Americans should suffer. It's not surprising that so many can't separate the Israeli government from the Israeli people, or more broadly, from Jews. It is similarly unsurprising that a large contingent want to lump all Palestinians under "Hamas".

We saw this after 9/11. All muslims are bad. Wipe out the entire Middle East. Revenge will solve everything.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

48. And that has nothing to do with the discussion

Because Trump isn’t in charge anymore.

[TiberiusB]

50. So the country is cured and we don't have to worry about the current state of the nation

Nope.

Trump could easily get elected again if trends continue. Maga has not evaporated and Republicans across the country and in Congress and the Supreme Court are dragging the nation backward as fast as they can. Electing Biden feels like a temporary reprieve.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

52. Agree

What does that have to do with Palestinians electing Hamas and them remaining in power for almost 20 years?

[TiberiusB]

69. Pointing to the election of Hamas by a single group and condemning the whole

Is the same as suggesting that all of America is represented by Donald Trump.

[PortTack]

54. Exactly....this kind of deep separation, good vs evil, black/white is just what putin and other

Forces of evil want!

Please please step back

[uponit7771]

58. The Palestinians *TODAY* did not choose Hamas stop with the semantics

[obamanut2012]

67. Trump was elected in 2016 and suspended all elections, and it is now 2033

Half of our country is 17 or younger. They did not elect Trump. How are they complicit in what MAGA does?

Half of the country in 2016 did not elect Trump. How are they complicit in what MAGA does?

Seventeen years without an election, yet a people are judged because of that election and the suspension of their rights by MAGA.

This is the reality.

[Ace Rothstein]

21. What is he talking about with the Bin Laden thing?

I don't remember any Al Qaeda claims of attacking us due to who we elected but it was a long time ago now.

[Happy Hoosier]

31. Basically....

Saying that is was okay to kill American civilians since we elected our government.

[Ace Rothstein]

35. Got it.

I guess I kind of remember that now.

[stopdiggin]

34. it was fleshed out a little better in an earlier post

in a nutshell - the 'justification' offered for slaughtering civilians, is that civilians support and contribute to 'policy' and machination that brutalize the oppressed - and makes their government into an 'enemy'. And I guess this rationale was taken directly from some of Bin Laden's speech or writing.

[obamanut2012]

65. Wrong, this has been debunked hundreds of times on here

[Initech]

17. Fuck Hamas!

[uponit7771]

20. +1

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

23. Agree

[Raine]

36. Absolutely! nt

[Cha]

24. Mahalo RandySF! 🤷‍♀️💕🤷‍♂️💕

[Get Me Outta Here]

37. I'm on the other bandwagon

Israel fucks over Palestinians by the goddamn minute, and it's not a thing. Not saying this is right. But saying I might do the same thing if I was being fucked over in the same circumstances. Wouldn't you?

[onecaliberal]

38. Definitely some cause and effect going on.

[Get Me Outta Here]

40. Thanks. Feeling out of place here.

Seems like taking that (C&E) into account is exceptionally rare and bizarrely avoided on DU. And Netanyahu/Egyptwhoever have all Gaza Strip residents trapped, and Israel is about to turn 2M Palestinians into 2M fucking parking spaces.(Saying, "Flee now," with no possibility of flight.)

[onecaliberal]

44. Been here almost ten years and still feel that way.

I’m floored and heartsick at some of the comments. Never ever thought I’d read here. Please stick around.

[AntivaxHunters]

60. Don't feel that way

There are many of us here who support the plight of the Palestinian people

[The Magistrate]

49. I Do Not Think So, Sir

This was a conscious decision to commit atrocity. Only one thing can come close to 'justifying' that --- calculation that the act will advance your cause to a degree sufficient to outweigh the loss of good feelings towards your cause doing so will entail. At bottom it is not a question of doing right or wrong, but of whether the act is stupid or not to do. This campaign of atrocity is calamitously stupid, and can only have been performed by profoundly stupid people. Either they actually thought this would improve their position, which only a stupid person could imagine, or they decided the emotional satisfaction attained by committing sadistic atrocity was of greater value than advancing their cause or safeguarding their people, which only a person both stupid and criminally inclined could imagine.

[Lithos]

55. Hi sir

Great to see you weigh in.

If I might add, Hamas lives in a literal and figurative walled garden at many different abstractions. Plato's cave is probably not allegorically fit enough to explain their thinking. Their perspective is going to include many shadows and fully divorced from reality.

[The Magistrate]

56. I've Been Mostly Steering Clear, My Friend

There's really not much to say. Israel will now do whatever proves necessary to extirpate Hamas. It will cease to exist as a body in Gaza. I'm comfortable with that result, and willing to overlook a good deal to see it achieved.


"It was worse than a crime. It was a mistake."

[yardwork]

76. It's good to see you, Lithos.

Thank you for this wise post with beautiful and thoughtful imagery.

[yardwork]

74. I also think there is some external manipulation, sir.

See my other post downthread. I believe that Hamas was encouraged to commit these atrocities with the full knowledge that chaos would ensue.

What is the single most divisive issue facing the West? Answer: our feelings about the Palestinian Israeli situation. It's so divisive on DU, a fairly mild-mannered corner of the internet, discussions on this topic are normally relegated to a single forum.

For the people intent on stirring up chaos and dissension to distract, this is a gold mine. The rapid, consistent peo-Palestinian messaging that swept across the internet like a tsunami is a clue.

[The Magistrate]

78. To Me, Sir, That Is Beside The Point

No matter how tempting the door left open, someone still decides to cross the threshold. The person who makes that decision is responsible for it, and no one else.

It is an unfortunate fact that authors of any attack on Israel can count on applause from some on the left. Social media spreads things quickly, things can become staples in blink. I don't know anything about hang-glider afficianadoes socializing, but they must have forums and clubs, and a clip-art of someone on a hang-glider is probably available off the shelf. I would suspect a bright young twenty-something pissed off at those 'helicopter ride' tee-shirts the rightist thugs favor, and seizing the chance to go them one better.

[yardwork]

81. I don't disagree about the personal responsibility, Sir.

The people who chose not to vote for Hillary Clinton in 2016 made their choice. So did those who voted to BREXIT. People who watch Fox News all day take their chances on being brainwashed. And you may be right and there's no coordination, just certain elements of the American left doing what they do.

By the way, I'm a woman. 😊

[The Magistrate]

82. I'm Losing My Touch Or My Memory, Ma'am

I shall try and remember.

[Marius25]

59. So you support ISIS terrorism against Europe and the US?

Exact same argument.

And I will remind you tons of people who were murdered and kidnapped weren't even Israeli citizens.


Anyone who supports or defends Hamas are terrorists.

[redqueen]

66. And no one is ever asked to condemn israel for those things

Because western media has an agenda, and it isn't to give both sides of this conflict equal treatment.

[yardwork]

77. I hear and read many, many people condemning Israel's policies.

I don't expect MSM - generally useless and certainly not on the side of democracy - to be a source of anything thoughtful or wise.

But plenty of thoughtful, wise people - including many American Jews - deplore Israel's policies. They say so often.

So, no. I disagree with your premise.

[Mossfern]

83. You would rape women and torture and murder peaceful civilans and children?

Or would you target the ones in power.

[iemanja]

39. equating Hamas with all Palestinians

is wrong. As is seeing the world in terms of "good guys" vs. "bad guys." There are thousands of civilians who never drew a weapon in their lives being killed in both Gaza and Israel. Yet you glibly deny the lives of most of them because you decided the average person is responsible for Hamas, which makes no sense. It's no different from holding you accountable for the crimes of US White Supremacists. Should you be killed or jailed because they murder?

[swong19104]

41. Yup.

It's becoming a Kamikaze action rather than some righteous attempt to overthrow the oppressor.

[onecaliberal]

47. Palestine is 40% children, who are these kamikazes you speak of?

They are NOT Hamas.

[The Revolution]

61. Hamas is the kamikaze pilot, Palestinians are the plane

The kamikaze pilot is in control and will destroy himself and his plane with his act. The plane isn't acting or even bad itself, but it will be destroyed nonetheless.

Hamas decided to take the whole Palestinian population and crash it into their enemy. The result was going to be ruin for the Palestinian people.

The attack was well planned and carried out. These people aren't stupid. They knew this attack wasn't going to bring down the state of Israel. They also knew that there would be retaliation, which was going to kill people that had nothing to do with the initial attack.

Hamas doesn't care.

[budkin]

42. Absolutely

If they wanted the world to be sympathetic they took the exact opposite actions. They just set back the cause of Palestinian statehood back at least 50 years.

[GoodRaisin]

51. I condemn the atrocities of Hamas but hope the world is still compassionate

enough that it doesn’t give up empathy for the innocent victims - all of them.

[NowISeetheLight]

57. Exactly

Agree with OP 100%. Even if I thought for a minute this was about anything other than hate and antisemitism I still could never justify in any way what happened.

[obamanut2012]

68. The only "good guys" are the innocent civilians

Making this some binary good guys/bad guys is dangerous thinking, and how we got Manzanar, Gila River, Tulare Lake, etc. in this country.

[Raine]

70. Absolutely agree nt

[Maru Kitteh]

71. agreed

[treestar]

72. If old enough, we've been dealing with this conflict

for over 60 years.

We have a right to look at it overall.

You are claiming this latest round means Palestinians get no empathy for their long term plight, and that it is OK if they are all killed.

There have been many prior occasions where that could have been said.

We are never to have had any sympathy for them. From the beginning, they could have stayed put. Too many of them ran and became refugees because they listened to the Arabs. They would have been treated equally and should have known that. They've been blamed for their plight since the beginning.

Many of them tried to settle in Arab states. It has often been said those neighboring Muslim areas which also spoke Arabic should have accepted them. Yet many of them different. Some of them are fifth generation Saudi Arabian born, and still not considered Saudi citizens (Saudi Arabia isn't the only one like this). Plus their life in those states is highly circumscribed. Yet it is their fault these states would not accept them as birth right citizens and equals.

They've never had much empathy for their plight. Even President Carter got called anti-semitic for giving them some.

[Uncle Joe]

80. Jimmy was radical, the 1st President to promote human rights as an issue.

[ripcord]

85. You sound like your memory us about as long as mine

Do you happen to remember the 5 times Palestine sent their militia to join the Arab armies in wars of genocide against Israel? The Arab nations have all signed treaties with Israel acknowledging Israel's right to exist, only Palestine still want to exterminate the Jews in the Middle East. How is Israel supposed to trust or even care about people who don't think they have a right to exist?

[yardwork]

73. There is a coordinated effort to make people see this differently.

We need to pause to look at what has unfolded. Hamas launched a surprise attack on civilians, and immediately - within hours - the left-wing internet blew up with some curiously similar talking points and images designed to blame Israel.

I'd like to focus on just one image: the graphic of a paratrooper carrying a Palestinian flag. It appears to be a celebration in solidarity with the Hamas attack. This image appeared on a number of internet sites, seemingly at once. Yesterday it was published by a BLM chapter in Chicago. Today, it appeared on a flag at a pro-Palestinian protest at UNC-Chapel Hill. (A Jewish professor was pushed downstairs at this protest.)

Where did this image come from? Who drew it? Who disseminated it? How was a flag with this image printed so quickly?

I feel that we are being manipulated. This reminds me of 2016 when pro-Trump trolls launched an internet campaign against Hillary Clinton. This reminds me of BREXIT, when false information was spread to encourage votes for xenophobia and chaos.

I wish everybody on DU would check themselves. Are you being influenced by what you're hearing elsewhere? Could it be that you're being manipulated?

[dwayneb]

84. You are right BUT

I will say it again. Iran is the true enemy. All the evil flows from them. Destroying Hamas will do nothing to stop them from mobilizing the group of terrorists.