General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDoes it feel like most Americans are ignoring the insane rise of fascism?
Trans bans, abortion bans, prosecuting women for miscarriages, book bans, eliminating school curriculum to protect white supremacists, the arrest of peaceful protesters in red states, the expelling of elected officials from state Houses for peaceful protest, the punishment of businesses for free speech, 40% of the country worshipping a criminal demagogue, mass shootings every day with no end in sight, the erosion of Democracy everywhere, the insanely corrupt Supreme Court, Texas talking about legalizing murder squads, etc.
As a Jew, I can tell you this is all how Nazi Germany started in its rise to power. That's not hyperbole.
And yet I feel like most Americans, while they may disapprove of what's going on, are really oblivious to how bad things are. The fact that Republicans retook the House is a testament to that.
I just don't see how the US recovers from this. As a Jew, I desperately want to flee the country, because I know what happens to people like me when countries reach this point. But I don't have the means to do so.
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Just A Box Of Rain
(5,104 posts)Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
Shipwack
(2,879 posts)Besides... It's always those people getting oppressed. If they just stopped rocking the boat and blended in, there wouldn't be any problems at all. We are in the greatest, most free country in the world, after all...
sigh
Is the 
smiley really necessary?
Marcus IM
(3,001 posts)As though people in democratic nations would want:
no universal health care
No universal higher ed
No real public transportation infrastructure
Guns. Everywhere. In the hands of people with untreated authoritarian personality disorder
Mental health care cuts.
#1 cause of childhood deaths = guns
Uh huh. The greatest.
ShazzieB
(21,771 posts)A good part of the world thinks we're out of our damned minds for putting up with all the stuff you listed and more. I'm not so sure they're wrong. 
Marcus IM
(3,001 posts)Yet, I often see Cuba being referred to as a 3rd world country.
No way.
Cubans have things that many Americans - especially lower income brackets - would give their "left one" for.
Things are relative, I suppose.
Cuba was my home. Much of my family lives there. When they visit me in Florida and they watch the news they can hardly wait to get back home where they feel safe.
I certainly don't consider Cuba to be 3rd world. In fact, it is much more socially developed than America in so many ways.
There are shortages, but, Cubans know why.
Cheers 
HeartachesNhangovers
(848 posts)Why are you in Florida instead of Cuba?
Marcus IM
(3,001 posts)I certainly hope that is not what you are saying.
Are you?
HeartachesNhangovers
(848 posts)to live in, since I've been here my whole life. In this thread you have nothing but compliments for Cuba, and none for the US. So why do you live here? You said Cuba was your home, so presumably you can go there.
Marcus IM
(3,001 posts)But, aside from other complications, I am more able to help my extended family from here than there.
I visit regularly and bring as much as is permissible (according to US regulations on limits).
I understand American culture and politics and Cuban culture and politics.
It gives me an advantage when discussing US/Cuba relations with under/misinformed Americans and Cubans.
All the best to you.
moniss
(8,172 posts)an article awhile ago that talked about punishment of slaves in the South. Among other things they pointed out that a great percentage of the punishment was done in order to enforce a doctrine of deference to the system. Sometimes they would just impose a punishment to set an example despite the person having done nothing. Slaves were supposed to "know their place" and were not to be seen or heard to be complaining otherwise you got punished, whipped etc. It was the old "lower your eyes as you pass me" sort of thing. I bring that article up in the context here because that is the overarching concept of "fitting in" etc. That's why, for example, we see still to this day that a white person can back talk cops without violent reprisal far more often than someone who "doesn't fit" so to speak. You make a very good point.
2naSalit
(98,089 posts)Response to Marius25 (Original post)
Chin music This message was self-deleted by its author.
mobeau69
(12,149 posts)Through action, and inaction, the gop has severely damaged our country and I’m not sure it can be reversed. 2024 will tell the tale.
Stinky The Clown
(68,823 posts)I agree with that
Mr.Bill
(24,906 posts)but support it.
ShazzieB
(21,771 posts)There are a lot of people who are unaware of the signs. They see things that are happening, but have no idea what it all means.
inthewind21
(4,616 posts)this has been coming for decades. And people thought, nah, this could never happen here. Well, here it is!
Skittles
(168,084 posts)because they choose to be FUCKING CLUELESS
I've said this many times recently, I have always wondered how something like the Holocaust could have happened but now I see the creeping acceptance and approval of hatred and bigotry towards, you know, CERTAIN GROUPS OF PEOPLE and I realize, I am seeing with own eyes how fascism comes about 
Deuxcents
(24,375 posts)I mean..some and the media refuse to see what is in plain sight.
Skittles
(168,084 posts)they APPROVE
Hermit-The-Prog
(36,631 posts)
Kablooie
(18,995 posts)It can’t happen HERE.
Frank Zappa told us that decades ago.
Conjuay
(2,747 posts)Sinclair Lewis had titled a book, " It Can't Happen Here".
1935.
Blue Owl
(57,625 posts)Just A Box Of Rain
(5,104 posts)60 Minutes did not ignore rising fascism, they shine a bright light on a very real threat.
That's what they should do.
Skittles
(168,084 posts)but I have seen several comments referring to Stahl's "softball questions"?
mobeau69
(12,149 posts)Skittles
(168,084 posts)Last edited Tue Apr 4, 2023, 05:52 AM - Edit history (1)
reduces the need for any real followup 
littlemissmartypants
(30,129 posts)Empty G's incoherent spiel.
Just A Box Of Rain
(5,104 posts)Stahl could not get in every question that one could hope to have answered in 13 minutes, but overall she did a very good job IMO.
She had direct evidence to contradict Greene's lies and she used the evidence repeatedly.
Stahl faced a choice of drilling down on few questions or trying to cover a lot of ground. She chose the latter tactic and kept hammering Greene with one example of Greene's outrageous behavior after another. In my estimation, it was quite effective.
When you find the time, and if you have the interest, it is only about 13 minutes long. Stahl did a lot of damage to Greene in that time IMO.
edisdead
(3,359 posts)inthewind21
(4,616 posts)Is depending on or expecting 60 minutes to make sure the likes of MTG is neutralized, well, that right there is a HUGE part of the problem. MTG is where she is because the people in her district in GA put her there.
Elections are the responsibility of the PEOPLE. And it's up to the PEOPLE to make sure the government does what the PEOPLE want. Our government is "of the PEOPLE, for the PEOPLE, by the PEOPLE." We have the opportunity every 2, 4 and 6 years to replace them if they aren't doing their jobs. It's not up to 60 minutes, FOX, MSNBC, CBS, CNN or any other media outlet to provide voters with the knowledge needed to be an informed voter. Anyone who relies on the media for all of their information is a fool. It's up to the voter to seek it out for themselves.
The alarm bells have been ringing for decades. Warnings have been issued to the public many times by several news anchors, politicians, activists etc., about the consequences of a Trump being allowed to gain the presidency and stack the federal courts and get the loons on the SC. Now it's happened. The barn door was left open and the horses bolted. All the 60 minute interviews in the world cant un-ring that bell. Now the issue at hand, how do you re-wind that giant ball of sting that has now been completely unwound and cut into pieces by the radical right? The way I see it, there's only one way. And it's going to be an almost impossible task to achieve. Control of the House with a margin of at least 20. A super majority (61 or more) in the Senate, the White house AND several state houses. And even then, the odds are 50/50 because the federal courts and the SC aren't likely to be helpful. And they are LIFETIME appointments. And we all just got a healthy dose of what it means to have a radical right SC and why all those warnings were being issued.
Just A Box Of Rain
(5,104 posts)to make informed choices.
So putting nuts like Green under a spotlight and showing viewers the evidence that contradicts their lies is vital to maintaining a free society.
We are under threat. The nuts need to be exposed.
inthewind21
(4,616 posts)But the media we have today (mainly cable news) has proven time and time again they are not there to be a solid information source. They are there to get viewers to make money. The word "sensationalize" springs to mind. Because sensationalism gets ratings. Relying on them to to provide all or enough information is a grave mistake. As evidenced by the mere fact that Trump was elected.
We have a very large portion of the public unable to think for themselves or question anything they hear so long as it fits with their narrative. A complete inability to think "that doesn't sound right" when they hear insane stuff such as Hillary is involved in a child sex ring out of the basement of a pizza place, Bill Gates is trying to microchip us all so I'm not getting a COVID vaccine or Jewish space lasers are setting California on fire on purpose! And social media, well that's an entire novel of "you've got be effing kidding me! I recently had a conversation with Republican/MAGA acquaintance who was convinced there was evidence that Bill and Hillary murdered Vince Foster and slew of other people, I asked him, if there's evidence of this, why haven't republicans turned over said evidence for prosecution? Why are they still walking free, I thought Republicans were all about rule of law? Deer in headlights. THAT is a problem.
Just A Box Of Rain
(5,104 posts)The journalistic standards have been too low for too long.
Doing "opinion-based" shows that speak to a niche audience is far less costly than doing hard news. And some people seem to prefer sensationalistic punditry over good journalism.
Too often objective journalism is smeared as "both-siderism."
To me, that's sad.
As a committed liberal Democrat, I think good journalism helps our party and is good for the country.
Without an informed populace, one that applies critical thinking skills when we vote and when look for solutions for our society's problems, then liberal democracy is in trouble.
inthewind21
(4,616 posts)with everything you said. With the rise of cable "news" those "journalistic standards" went right out the window. See Fox for the poster child of "lacking any standards at all." Cable is a a profit driven private business that is not regulated by governmental agencies. It's astounding how many have no clue. I've seen is asked on this very site why the FCC didn't get control of Fox. It's all been jumbled up and diluted to the point where if one doesn't stay on their toes, one can be easily sucked in. And that was all by design. And that is exactly what has happened with a very large portion of the US population.
Just A Box Of Rain
(5,104 posts)I literally NEVER watch them, aside from seeing the outrage highlights on the Daily Show, the web, or similar venues.
But--for the first time ever--I tuned in the night that the indictments came down (briefly as I was soon nauseated) and the vile dishonesty was even worse than I expected--and I was expecting it to be very bad.
FOX is a clear and present danger.
I'm a champion of free speech rights, but they are utterly reprehensible. Hopefully the Dominion case breaks them financially. A person can dream.
Thanks for the nice exchange. Much appreciated!
progressoid
(52,129 posts)From a journalistic standpoint, we learned nothing new from the interview (yes, I watched it).
WarGamer
(18,017 posts)One of the world's experts of Fascism... Professor Kimber Quinney has asked people to separate what she calls "Capital F" Fascism which is the Italian phenomenon of the early 20th Century and what was perceived far BEFORE Mussolini and what extends into today.
This "small f" fascism can be more accurately characterized as Authoritarianism.
Trump and Co? Authoritarians.
AntiFascist
(13,685 posts)carrying flags with swastikas and loudly yelling Sieg Heil while giving the Hitler salute?
This is more than just Authoritarianism since it is targeting specific groups. They were also yelling "there will be blood"!
https://www.outfrontmagazine.com/neo-nazis-storm-an-ohio-drag-queen-story-hour/
Marius25
(3,213 posts)Republicans are engaging in all the warnings signs of fascism found in the Holocaust museum. We have actual Nazis trying to burn down buildings to kill drag queens. We have actual Nazis in Congress.
WarGamer
(18,017 posts)If you don't have a NSDAP Party number issued pre-1945, you're not a NAZI.
If you follow NAZI ideology today, you're a NEO-NAZI.
Fascism and Racism are NOT inseparable.
NAZI Germany, considered small-f, fascist was virulently racist, especially towards Jews. The pre-WW2 Austrian Gov't was fascist and protected Jews and the Gov't included Jews.
It's a fascinating subject, I'd suggest you research it more deeply.
You will come to believe, as I have... that the phrase is misused today, mostly as a slur or insult.
Start with Hannah Arendt, and her book, The Origins of Totalitarianism.
Yes, her "Banality of Evil" comments tainted her name later, but her research re: Fascism is sound.
You will learn, all of these evil ideologies are a mixture of different philosophies and calling any authoritarian leader or politician a "fascist" is intellectually lazy. In fact... many experts cite Stalinist Russia as "Red Fascism" which is counter to the whole Nazi vs USSR common belief.
You will also find that using the term "fascist" as a slur started in Stalin era Russia, it was used to describe pretty much everyone in opposition to the State.
Russia still uses the terms "fascist" and "Nazi" re: Ukraine in their propaganda.
It's really fascinating research and I urge you to do some reading.
AntiFascist
(13,685 posts)are neo-Nazis fascists or not?
I've studied enough of the history of Nazi Germany to know that the rise of Hitler was initially spurred by a right-wing reaction to the perceived threat of socialism and communism sweeping across Europe. As authoritarian criminals, such as Trump and others, continue to abuse capitalism for their own power-crazed goals, we will see, and are seeing, these pendulum swings as history tends to repeat itself. The extreme right-wing follows the same play book, no matter how you label it, and oppressed minorities always seem to be on the receiving end of authoritarian violence.
WarGamer
(18,017 posts)That's the problem Historians are having.
Capital "F" Fascism is the Mussolini brand.
Small "f" fascism has many definitions. Some people simply call fascism an ideology against Democracy. That's overly simplistic and maybe inaccurate.
Are Neo-Nazis fascist? I'm sure they want to be but with no power whatsoever... they're just a joke.
AntiFascist
(13,685 posts)but I also feel that US citizens are like frogs about to get boiled with more of Trump's base getting into government, the DOJ unwilling to take action that should be taken, anti-woke laws being passed, right-wing activism by the Supreme Court...what's next?
WarGamer
(18,017 posts)Because Authoritarians are pushing for more and more political power.
I think that's more accurate than the fascist boogeyman.
After all... the fascist definition in 2023 has been boiled down to "being against Democracy" and that's only a fraction of what being authoritarian is all about.
Fascism actually has a definition. Just like NAZI. Italy, early 20th Century... Mussolini... they called THEMSELVES Fascists.
And as you alluded to earlier, the 20th Century presented two similar and equally destructive ideologies.
The Russian Revolution unleashed Socialism, the door knocker to Communism on the world.
The reaction to the Reds was Fascism and eventually Nazism.
Frankly, both were murderous, anti-democratic regimes.
And understandably... the word fascist became a propaganda tool for the Soviets. They painted anti-fascist slogans on their tanks, on their propaganda posters... fascist would become a cover-all term for any enemy of the State.
In the 1920's in Germany, the Communist Party started Antifaschiste Aktion (ANTIFA) and it was a front operation for the Soviets, supported fully by Lenin, the Bolsheviks and Stalin.
ANTIFA spread around the world, even into the USA.
Looking back... we'd have been a lot better off if Truman and Ike had taken Pattons advice and directly rolled from Germany to Moscow in 1945.
Nazism and Communism fucked over half a century of human societal evolution.
EDIT:
I think a lot of people don't understand... the REAL STORY of WW2 wasn't Fascism vs the World...
It was Fascism vs Communism and the US took the side of the Communists until decades later when they finally defeated the Soviet Union without a shot.
Abolishinist
(2,801 posts)I find she's a fellow San Diegan. A dozen or so years ago I purchased a number of books (by noted scholars) on F(f)ascism, some read, some skimmed - and was fascinated by at once the subtle differences in their attempts to define the term and the outright 180 degree differences in opinion.
Most of what I read tended to place great emphasis on the inter-war period. In the end, I found Robert Paxton to be my fave. However, if you're familiar with Zeev Sternhell, his approach got me interested in some other topics as well, as it is his opinion that the beginnings go back to the fin-de-siecle.
The historian Zeev Sternhell has traced the ideological roots of fascism back to the 1880s, and in particular to the fin-de-siècle (French for “end of the century”) theme of that time. This ideology was based on a revolt against materialism, rationalism, positivism, bourgeois society, and democracy. The fin-de-siècle generation supported emotionalism, irrationalism, subjectivism, and vitalism. The fin-de-siècle mindset saw civilization as being in a crisis that required a massive and total solution. Its intellectual school considered the individual only one part of the larger collectivity, which should not be viewed as an atomized numerical sum of individuals. They condemned the rationalistic individualism of liberal society and the dissolution of social links in bourgeois society.
In the end, I found his take to be an interesting, albeit much too involved, journey, but as I said, it opened other doors for exploration, such as Vichy France and the Dreyfus affair. Sternhell, as I recall, did not even consider the Nazis to be fascists.
WarGamer
(18,017 posts)And IIRC, even Hannah Arendt didn't believe the NAZIS were fascists.
roamer65
(37,805 posts)We are going the direction of states like CA, NY, WA, OR, etc.
You know you are welcome here, right?
edisdead
(3,359 posts)We could use some solidification here.
ExWhoDoesntCare
(4,741 posts)By buying our old homes and getting us new ones.
Paying our moving expenses.
Finding us jobs that will give us the same standard of living we currently have.
And do the same for the family members dependent on us, like my elderly parent.
As soon as you put up what it will take so that we can move up there, we'll be in the next u-haul out of here!
Until then, posts like this are as unhelpful as they are contemptuous of what keeps so many of us stuck in places like this.
bamagal62
(4,199 posts)Stupid to know what fascism is.
Bayard
(27,393 posts)It was a father and teenage son sitting in a car together. Dad says, I saw what you posted online about--"Hitler was right." The son is making uncomfortable faces. Dad says--go say it to their face. The camera draws back, and you see they are sitting in front of a synagogue with families and kids coming out from a service.
Very powerful.
I think a lot of people don't recognize fascism. Its never been on their radar. An abstract concept from a history book that does not touch them personally. Most are not tuned into in-depth politics like DU members are--they're pretty clueless about the details. Most are not really going to understand why trump is going down
The insane legislators now remind me of lynch mobs bent on hanging decency from the nearest tree.
New Breed Leader
(878 posts)I'm going to try to find that on Youtube.
Duppers
(28,439 posts)This was on PBS.
C Moon
(13,242 posts)
MiniMe
(21,860 posts)And by using the word younger, I'm not talking about that young. A friend of mine who is in her 40's had no idea what I was talking about when I said I was worried about Fascism with tRump's election. This was back in 2016.
ancianita
(42,298 posts)Last edited Tue Apr 4, 2023, 03:23 AM - Edit history (2)
watching for what's next in their hyped slow roll train wreck of disconnected cars.
81 million didn't let fascism rise the last time. They're all still here.
Moreover, consider the rest of the busy, tired, trying to make a living kind of Americans, and you'll see that by the numbers, 77% of America did NOT vote GOP.
It's a basic numbers map that shows the reality of "consent of the governed." And so, while only something like over 60% of the adult electorate voted, the rest of us, except for about 23% of the whole country -- not just the electorate that won -- have been okay with that decision.
Those millions not engaged in politics, due to life stresses or lack of personal capacity (undocumenteds and minors), just need to get by in some kind of mind-my-own-business peace, don't want to think about what the other group would do, and they only have to expose themselves to just enough news to get the picture. And that is why, right now, they are so sick of seeing innocence dying, and being told how to live because of pro-gun, pro-power punitive Republican leaders, that even the non-voters are protesting. And what do the pro-gun folks say to deflect? that the other side is the hateful, killing side. Kids can see what's wrong because they've got their very lives and futures to lose.
We've tried to tell the unengaged that if they don't want to deal with politics, politics will come for them. And now the little children lead them. Because it's not enough to just trust. That's why there are those who guard the perimeters, enforce rule of law, so children can have childhoods, and a just peace, instead of an unjust peace.
(edited for clarity)
edisdead
(3,359 posts)Your post may all be true however, there is a reality that people that want to push authoritarianism ARE IN FACT in powerful positions, including the house and governorships and state houses. That is a very real thing. Additionally these ideas are being pushed in pop culture in ways that we have not prepared for to combat. You can call it fear and that may be true. I think if we aren’t a little afraid of what is happening that is a problem in my book.
ancianita
(42,298 posts)Last edited Tue Apr 4, 2023, 12:22 PM - Edit history (1)
wanting or trying to be right. I want all this to not be true. A true map of reality shows us how to navigate the world. What if we learn that our map isn't the territory.
Fear is an inherited trait that helps us survive legitimate disasters, or predator ambush. I get that. So one learns to map danger zones.
But when fears are imposed by design, they're illegitimate. "Protection" rackets' agents (designers or their street imitators) hide behind wizard-of-oz curtains, impose stresses and suffering that everyday people experience -- that's the illegimate point of fascism. Of course fear is a very real thing, but its fomenting is illegitimate. Caused by very real people hiding behind fictional personhoods curtains.
When rule of law catches up with fascists in the end, they say, "Nothing personal, just business."
Those people's front men are in government and appear powerful only because they and media 'narrators' are paid to appear that way. I use the old Black and hippie term "hype," as in, "Don't believe the hype."
Like Trump, they run for a long time, foment profitable conflict, deflect with scapegoats, hide money from their protection rackets outside jurisdictions ("They're really coming for YOU, I'm just standing in the way"
but honest rule of law catches up, even if it's in their old age. Rule of law caught up with old holocaust nazis, their bankers, and now him. These are the kind of agents who have no home, no jurisdictions that can touch them, so they can exist "above the law." (L=land; A=Air; W=water -- an old Roman concept still in use)
Today is the anniversary of The Panama Papers, terrabytes of records of decades of theft from whole societies. Those siphoners at finance and banking levels are name-able. They die and their payment structures, their aiders and abetters, live on as neoliberal lingo makers who keep the hierarchal divisions going, that keep the unnecessary suffering and conflict of millions going.
Fear by design. It's how hierarchies ("I'll protect you, just hold me up" ) of the dominance ladder are maintained. Those who die through that enforcement have legitimate fear. Those who foment that fear feel the illegitimate fear of getting caught.
Right now there are women who cannot get the healthcare they need. There are women who have to worry about their neighbors reporting on them. There are bills waiting to be passed naming women as murderers for making a healthcare decision. There are trans kids that cannot get the help that they need. There ate parents of kids that are in danger of being criminally punished for getting their child the assistance they need. There are doctors that are ind anger of being criminally prosecuted and losing their careers for providing care. THERE ARE KIDS BEING MOWED DOWN IN THEIR FUCKING SCHOOLS and a whole political party not only not giving a shit about it but actively making it easier for it to take place!!!!!!!
Yes there is fear propaganda. Absolutely. But there are VERY real reasons to be afraid right mow and that fear had better motivate the shot out of people.
ancianita
(42,298 posts)I live in a state where fascism is now legalized. And Strongman henchmen don't even have to have a permit to carry death tools. Who are they really protecting? The few. At the expense of "consent of the governed," by rule of men, not rule of law. But the law must enforce against this rule of men.
I hear you loud and clear.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)Religion isn't the opiate of the masses, XBox2 is.
moniss
(8,172 posts)and I'll add "reality" TV shows. I was stunned a few years ago when my well educated mother called me about a great new TV series she was watching called "Pawn Stars". She went on and on about how people just come into the shop at any time with all kinds of things and how wonderfully knowledgeable these people all were about so many different things. I tried to explain to her that no TV show is going to just set up a camera in a pawn shop and let it roll for hours on end and hope something interesting happens. She began to get agitated at my explanation but I continued. I explained that the "scenes" are put together by the TV production people who know ahead of time what is coming in and the details about the item are researched before the shop personnel or their "experts" even see the person at the counter. Mom was mad as hell at me for apparently bursting the bubble about how scripted these shows are. At least she never called me to tell me about the gold miners who just "happen" upon a bunch of nuggets in Australia, finding valuable big dollar items etc. in an abandoned storage locker time after time and multiple lockers at that and week after week, classic car restorations that almost don't get done on time and the list of concocted shows serving as opiate goes on.
I should have expected she might fall for this crap though since a few years before that she told me about how great the show "Judge Judy" was because people would come in and try to lie but she was too smart for them and they would lose their case. Maybe it's passed down through the ages also because my Great Grandmother used to watch the afternoon soaps and particularly loved "The Edge of Night". I remember when I was a kid and she told me how awful these people behaved and that it was a good thing the TV people were there to catch them doing their crimes. I tried to tell Grandma that these were just actors like in a play and the stories were made up. I got yelled at then too. Got asked to leave and my normal summer afternoon session with her of Windmill cookies and milk came to an end for a very long time. It was then that I began to learn about the benefits of being seen and not heard.
wnylib
(25,339 posts)how what fascism is and how it gained power in Germany. Americans only know what the Nazis were like once they had power. So if you mention fascism to them, they immediately think of death camps and scoff at the idea that the extreme right w8ng populism in the US today is the start of fascism.
Demobrat
(10,218 posts)just to make it through the day to think about the big picture too much.
Sky Jewels
(9,148 posts)Come on. How hard is it to understand that Republicans are try to outlaw abortion, for example? It’s really not. And in most places there are ways to vote early or absentee, so being too busy working to vote is not an excuse for most people, either.
inthewind21
(4,616 posts)If you can't "find the time" because you are too busy with life, then don't be surprised when life as you know it disappears. That's what happens when you let others decide because you were "too busy."
moniss
(8,172 posts)I will add to that another chilling scenario. There is a huge portion of the current younger population that has no concept of the reality of how things really were for people in the '50's and '60's. I have spoken to many people in their 20's who really express disbelief about lynchings, segregation, Vietnam, censorship restrictions on subject matter on TV, Chicago 1968, super restrictive rules in high schools, severe prison penalties for simple possession of pot and the list goes on.
It is similar to the desire of the fascists in the US political environment to restrict teaching/access to knowledge about the history of slavery, racism etc. But of course the media is generally too stupid/complicit to point out to people that this is being done for the same reason as Holocaust denialism. Nobody in the media, and largely in government so far, is willing to state what we know to be the obvious. The same fascists responsible for the current atmosphere of book banning will aggressively go after books/teaching about the Holocaust.
So we already have a very large portion of the country primed to disbelieve the horrors of social injustice, oppression etc. The redefinition of people as "other" is already well underway as we see in the fight for LGBTQ+ rights. Notice that several politicians have recently spoken about "containing" that segment of our society or even "eliminating" them. The dehumanizing of them is cheered on by the likes of Tucker Carlson calling them the "enemy" of Christians.
Yes the world has been here before. Like you I see it coming around again. Orchestrated and happening. Just like before.
Sky Jewels
(9,148 posts)Gen Z voted overwhelmingly for Biden. When Boomers were at a similar age (18-20s) they voted for Nixon.
The Reagan lovers in the Silent Generation and the Baby Boomers and the older end of Gen X (my demo) have gotten us here. They’re the ones that have embraced or gone along with the Republican fascist agenda, not the younger folks. Gen Z wants legal abortion, gun control, action on global warming, etc.
Yes, these are generalizations. (So many feel the need to make comments like: “Well I’m a Boomer and never voted for a Republican in my life!” … We know. Exceptions abound, etc.)
moniss
(8,172 posts)and I would point out that your age category would only apply to the 1972 election since the 26th Amendment that lowered the age to 18 didn't get ratified until 1971. The statistics that I see for the election of 1972 for your age group reference actually lean Democratic to roughly even. The people older than your reference age group were the bulk of the vote and went for Nixon in both elections. The way older Boomers in their mid to late 20's were more heavily GQP. But their numbers were still dwarfed by those older. Turnout is everything.
I believe you misunderstand my reference about younger people. That point being that if you do not know how bad things were and how hard the fight has been you may well be doomed to repeat history. It won't matter what Gen Z wants if they don't know what to fight against that will keep them from getting what they want.
https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=286509.0
Sky Jewels
(9,148 posts)Biden got something like 60 percent of the under-30 vote.
I think Gen Z has its eyes open. They know full well that their reproductive rights are being stripped and no one is doing much about gun massacres and the older generations are just letting the planet melt because that's what capitalism calls for.
moniss
(8,172 posts)and I would point out that during that period there was a major difference in attitude and experiences between Boomers of 1946 to 1953 and those born 1953 to 1964. The stats reflect that shift. I don't think Gen Z as a generalization has their eyes open to the fact that movement towards general overarching fascistic control is what will prevent any of the things they say they want. I see them more focused on issue specifics rather than the big picture. You see a lot of people in their 20's belly to belly in the rallies for the Orange Ruski and so I don't feel Gen Z as a general matter is riding in on the white horse to save us any time soon.
Sky Jewels
(9,148 posts)They saved us in the last three election cycles. They've already rescued us. If it weren't for the kids, Trump would be in his second term.
moniss
(8,172 posts)in any group. It is not just one age group or the other that puts it over the top unless they were voting by group at segregated times.
Sky Jewels
(9,148 posts)than the over-45 crowd.
moniss
(8,172 posts)is not always, and in this case especially, an accurate means by which to lay claim to what put someone "over the top" in an election. Biden would have lost without his votes from any of the age groups no matter how you define them. Your original claim was about people 18-20's for Nixon which you later clarified as referring to 1972. I gave you a link to some data. I would also like to point out that any and all discussion of votes cast by age group are not based on actual figures but rather polling data before and after the election. You ballot is anonymous and the only record of someone voting that can be used to eventually get to an age is the voter registration info/poll book. The Boomers are defined as those born between 1946 and 1964. You later made reference to how those under 30 voted. You've been making this Boomer versus Gen Z comparison and so we'll go with that. Therefore the Boomer cutoff for voting in 1972 was age 26 down to age 18. Lumping in another 4 years of voters that by definition don't belong in that group means an apples and oranges situation that doesn't need any further examination.
Also as I have pointed out the Boomers who voted in 1972 were not all of one mind, experience and political leaning as the data confirms and as I can confirm to you having lived through that time. Let me just give you an example. It was very common at the time for young people 18-20 years old to be very much at odds with their older siblings who were in their mid to late 20's. I was there. As were many others here. Gen Z is not monolithic either as I've pointed out. The OP, myself and others are not dealing in generalities about a generation but rather pointing out the dangers of so many people not understanding how fascism grows and destroys. It does so even while some people are fighting on an issue specific basis and may even feel they are making progress. If the fascistic control proceeds then any "progress" that has been made that is contrary to what the fascistic control wants will be an illusory gain because it will be quashed using the institutions they control. Not recognizing that is the danger we speak of and the fact that they come after groups of people they identify as "other" etc.
Scrivener7
(57,443 posts)It is natural not to understand the things you haven't experienced. But I dearly hope they don't have to experience it.
Sky Jewels
(9,148 posts)If not for them, I'd hate to think where we'd be now. In the second term of a Trump presidency, for starters. *shudder*
The older generations, including many who remember the pre-Roe days, are the ones who are fucking us over at the ballot box, because millions of them are driven by fear and racism and too stupid to see through Fox/hate radio propaganda. I say this as someone in her late 50s; I'm no "youth." (Yes, not every older person is like that, etc., blah blah...) I compare my 20-something kids and their friends to the Reagan-loving idiots I went to high school with (who are now nearing 60) and it's night and day. Gen Z is a truly a great generation. (Yes, that is anecdotal, etc., but statistics do paint a very bright picture of Gen Z).
Meowmee
(9,212 posts)Completely. We are going to leave at some point. There are other reasons why too. I hope you can get away from here. I never thought I would see here what is going down but I always feared it. My health is starting to fail more from all of it. Who knows if I will make it out alive.
DFW
(59,144 posts)A third of the country wants to, a third of the country is dead set on preventing it, and a third seems to not understand what all the fuss is about.
This means that about two thirds of the country went to school for however many years, and learned nothing.
observation.
B.See
(7,004 posts)...yet sometimes it felt like I was the ONLY one. One thing I know, we'd better WAKE THE FK UP!
Scrivener7
(57,443 posts)
Roisin Ni Fiachra
(2,574 posts)about fascism, have been chastised by moderates for calling the fascists exactly what they are, and for telling the truth about fascists and fascism. We aren't left wing extremists, and we never were. We are realists, and we always were.
Don't say the "F word" (when referring to Republicans as fascists) has been like some unwritten rule among the moderate Democratic establishment. There are still many who can't bring themselves to call a fascists a fascist.
It's time for all Democrats to emancipate their minds from the fear and mental slavery largely brought about by fascist hate radio, fascist influencers, and fascist Fox News. They are all fascist liars.
Everyone, say it with me: "fascists! Republicans are fascists. Fascists, fascists, fascists fascists, fascists! Stinking fascists.
Feels good, doesn't it? Now let's go out and save our country from fascists, and fascism.
Thank you for this OP, Marius25.
betsuni
(28,443 posts)Last edited Tue Apr 4, 2023, 09:56 AM - Edit history (1)
Who are you talking about? You meant Republicans. You know Democrats have been warning against fascism, including President Biden. So who are you talking about? "Establishment"? Who?
Hotler
(13,485 posts)right away and make protest illegal. Their voters will demand to form death squads. A national religion and their bible will be the law.
Poiuyt
(18,272 posts)They may not call it that, but they certainly endorse the tenets of fascism.
haele
(14,726 posts)And that's how conservative political and corporate leadership is happy to keep it.
Fascism ensures there's a status quo to depend on and the trains will always run on time (so long as they don't derail due to poor maintenance). And the 20 to 25% that might complain are taken care of, along with the poor and more uppity undesirables. For a couple of years, the majority of populations (especially the petite-bourgeois) in countries that go fascist are more happy for the consistency of the policies than they are about the policies themselves. Most people crave stability, even if it's horrible. Until, of course, the underlaying corruption of fascism starts to adversely affect them.
Give the majority an "other" group to blame, and they'll feed on them until the "others" appear to get too weak to be the threat, then they'll start feeding on themselves in a rush to be more "pure" to have the status and privilege they feel they deserve, as fascism always devolves into a zero-sum game based around the ruling leadership
Haele
peggysue2
(12,215 posts)There have been some recent exceptions, but overall our media follows the entertainment factor rather than exposing the GOP's political undercurrent, the rising and dangerous romance with fascism. Republicans have openly exposed their embrace of characters like Orban and Putin, the whole strongman persona. The cult of personality is writ large in Republican circles and/or shrugged off by so-called establishment types.
All of this is unAmerican and anti-democratic.
Yet the media by-and-large refuses to meet the challenge, ferret out the political rot, the corruption and hate while right-wing media hails the populist, theocratic surge with open arms.
I share your angst over what's been going on in the country, the disgusting display of 'otherism,' the scapegoat techniques so frequently used by GOP strategists. The rise in antisemitism, racism, sexism and all the other symptoms you mentioned are a clear and present danger.
As is the potential for violence.
The alternative for those of goodwill is to fight back with our voices and votes. The country has been here before and we managed to hold the line. We are the majority and we need to use that to our advantage, rather than a go-with-the flow mentality which history has taught is morally, culturally and politically suicidal.
That's not to dismiss your fear bc I share it. Though not a Jew, I was raised Catholic and RCs have never been popular or trusted by the haters.
They come for you, they come for the rest of us; history is replete with that simple truth.
Which is why we need to fight this with everything we have. We're fighting for our lives. We're fighting for our future. We win by standing shoulder-to-shoulder.
inthewind21
(4,616 posts)Doesn't vote. The people do. The Media is there to make $$, not make sure the public is up to speed on civics. It should have become crystal clear by now. If people are depending on the media to prevent anything, well, how's that worked out so far? And to be clear, when I say media, I am mainly speaking of cable. When was the last time you watched political coverage on your local news station?
peggysue2
(12,215 posts)holding the disinformation agents' feet to the fire. From what I've read Leslie Stahl did just that on 60 Minutes, giving Marjorie Taylor Greene a platform to spread her hate and craziness.
One could argue the media/press offered Donald Trump a free ride to the WH with non-stop publicity and few if any reservations of how looney and incompetent the man was/is. CNN's CEO Jeff Zucker at the time actually said Trump may be bad for the country but he's great TV. And I recall a Wall Street Journal interview shortly before the 2016 election that was cleaned up. The original transcript was released for a brief period. Chilling. Trump was absolutely incomprehensible.
They're just two examples which have been followed by hundreds if not thousands more.
Freedom of the press is an intrinsic arm to maintaining a free and democratic society. When the press shirks that responsibility, they limit the free flow of accurate information, open inquiry and the public's understanding of what's truly going on. Instead, we have conspiracy mania spread on twitter and across the internet which gives the chaos agents free rein to influence disgruntled voters into thinking only their candidates can change things for the better and any problems in the country are about the Others, be they Jews, immigrants, women, people of color, etc.
Scapegoating, 101.
The free-fall of responsible, hard-hitting journalism isn't the only reason we see a scary rise in fascist chest-thumping. But its decline has certainly added to the mayhem in a world where we're drowning in information with few yardsticks to discern the validity about what we're reading or hearing.
For those citizens/voters who have never developed strong critical thinking skills or have pent up grudges and prejudices? It's a perfect breeding ground for hate.
I_UndergroundPanther
(13,287 posts)Trans disabled and poor. Poor and disabled makes other countries reject me.
The reason people are tolerating fascism its because they havent lost enough yet to fight the fascists.
By time most people have lost enough to act it will be too late to do it without bloodshed.
I hope I am dead before it happens.
EnergizedLib
(2,834 posts)But what can I do to stop it? I voted, but the state I’m currently in is solid red.
I think legislatures feel emboldened after Dobbs happened, the evils of the 10th Amendment I wish did not exist and wish people knew more about the dangers of states rights.
It's unfuckingbelievable, but there it is.
Demsrule86
(71,257 posts)People know and this is what will keep the GOP out of power...their attempt to overthrow our democracy and the anger with the courts who ruled against ROE.
Marius25
(3,213 posts)While yes, they did far worse than expected, they still control the House and they're turning every Red state into a fascist dictatorship.
liberal_mama
(1,495 posts)It started the minute it was decided that it was okay to let 1000s of elderly and disabled people die needlessly of Covid so able-bodied people can enjoy going maskless and spread the virus and not care if their actions cause the death of others. It's sickening. If people don't care about the high risk people, they won't care about the others too. They will come for all the other groups too.
My daughter is Jewish.
The shocking behavior of people during the pandemic makes me afraid of what the near future will bring.
I'm immune compromised so my fellow citizens are constantly trying to kill me now and they murdered my 74 year old dad with Covid 5 months ago. He was healthy and could have had decades of life left, but someone felt the convenience of going out maskless was more important than his life. It's terrifying to live in a country where most people don't care if you die a horrible and painful death from Covid.
What group will they want to eliminate next? This country, and other countries too, let the dead and evil get in and even people who think of themselves as good are actively participating in the culling of senior citizens and high risk.
What did people think would happen? People have become desensitized to the suffering and death of others. Unless it's happening to them or their families, they don't care.
People should read the book Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning. Normal German family men became mass murderers.
I wish I could find a safe place to go.
I agree with Marius, the country is completely oblivious to what's going on and I don't have hope that we can recover anymore.
bdamomma
(69,067 posts)because each day our rights are being taken away. Which we can see already. We can see what is going on out in Florida. Believe what they say and do.
Also there was one episode I remember from Handmaid's Tale where June and her girlfriend were talking when they said they should have taken action earlier. Food for thought.
barbtries
(30,827 posts)people are in denial. my opinion.
Response to Marius25 (Original post)
traitorsgalore This message was self-deleted by its author.
NowISeetheLight
(4,002 posts)It’s exactly like Germany. I think people are just blind. Hitler convinced Germans their poor state in life was the fault of the Jewish people. Just like today the “less educated” supporters of MAGA have been brainwashed to believe their failing to reach riches is the fault of foreigners, gays, trans people, black people, everyone but themselves. It’s always been easier to blame someone else than look in a mirror.
The book banning and discrimination is only going to get worse. As a gay man at least I live in California now where I feel safe. I would be lying though if I said I HAVEN’T looked at other countries. I can totally see applying for asylum somewhere if they succeed in turning this into a Christianistan nation and outlaw homosexuals from everything.
DBoon
(24,379 posts)ExWhoDoesntCare
(4,741 posts)They started planning it when TFG got elected, and they finally got their ducks in a row to do it a couple of years ago.
They said they'd feel safer in Israel than with what was coming here. And Israel is no picnic. They even said that's how scared they were, for Israel to seem safer now.
Sky Jewels
(9,148 posts)I don't really have anything to say, other than ... Wow.
Marius25
(3,213 posts)Israel is on the verge of a civil war now, so I don't think it's safe.
H2O Man
(78,082 posts)Too many are ignoring it. And too many are participating in it.
Initech
(106,532 posts)I honestly can't help but wonder what the rest of the world is thinking about what the rest of the world is thinking about the United States right now. Things are so fucked up and I feel like they are going to get worse. If the GOP gets the White House and Senate, I have no doubt that they would commit unspeakable crimes against humanity. They could act out their wildest revenge fantasies and there would be no one to stop them. It's frightening to think what the future holds.
Arthur_Frain
(2,247 posts)In a twisted “End justifies the means” philosophy.
Tree Lady
(12,796 posts)like Hitler would ever happen here. They are busy working and trying to pay for expensive rent and food and gas. When they come home they completely zone out.
They probably see Trump as a joke, old unhealthy one at that.
Too many shiny things to look at on Tiktok or endless streaming.
jgo
(1,000 posts)neighbors, those at the gym, etc. - about voting. But, they say things like only nerds vote, or they are not qualified to vote, or they would only vote if it was on Saturday, or other things that don't make any sense. I am at a loss.
Model35mech
(2,047 posts)To be clear, it IS a terrible, and only its demise will make it NOT be a terrible force in our lives.
It arises when cultural interpretations of how we "should be" to support productiveness endorses subjugation that is called belief in "proper" authority by eduators as defined by none other than, you guessed it, "the proper authorities".
It's a hyperbolic Frankenstien's monster of various features of normal human nature stretched, twisted, and distorted into an unrecognizable organization that suppresses human nature. Unless, of course, that human nature serves the interests of the selfish few'.
I've lived under this ever more awful system since 2010 in Wisconsin. It not only CAN survive in the US. IT DOES, in about 15 states, that are financially and ideologically supported by what can generously be called self-invested corporate entities who care for nothing of citizen interests or natural concerns. It is the corporation led version of totalitarianism.
We serve to make them rich, and we need to learn how to appreciate our place in the system. Or.... Well... OR ELSE.
Kid Berwyn
(22,123 posts)We will expose their NAZI rot, name each publicly, shame them for history, and, when they break the law, prosecute them to the fullest and jail every rotten defendant.
From a past life:
Know your BFEE: Like a NAZI
https://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x133897