Driving 100 Miles in an EV Is Now More Expensive Than in an ICE

[NickB79]

https://jalopnik.com/driving-100-miles-in-an-ev-is-now-more-expensive-than-i-1850031874

However, a recent report from the Anderson Economic Group (AEG) found that fueling costs from mid-priced ICE-powered vehicles are lower than similarly priced electric vehicles. Combustion drivers pay about $11.29 per 100 miles on the road. EV drivers who charge up at home spend about $11.60 per 100 miles. The price difference is more dramatic for those who mainly recharge at stations. Frequent charging station users pay $14.40 per 100 miles.

AEG founder Patrick Anderson stated, “The run-up in gas prices made EVs look like a bargain during much of 2021 and 2022. With electric prices going up and gas prices declining, drivers of traditional ICE vehicles saved a little bit of money in the last quarter of 2022.”

There were several factors AEG used in determining that owning an electric vehicle was more expensive, like home charging equipment costs, road taxes and deadhead miles. ICE-powered car owners have gas purchases taxed to fund road construction and maintenance. While EV owners don’t pay a gas tax, some states have introduced an additional EV registration fee to compensate.

The massive increase in the report for charging station users versus home chargers is accounted for by the deadhead miles to reach stations and the opportunity cost of waiting for vehicles to charge at stations. The difference highlights the lackluster coverage for electric vehicle charging infrastructure across the United States.

WTF?

[Native]

1. Makes sense to me.

[Easterncedar]

2. Guess I'm still glad for my hybrid

[Native]

5. We're part of an energy cooperative, and we were only paying about $6

per 100 miles with our plug in hybrid.

[brush]

6. Hybrids seem to be the best way to go now.

[Native]

11. I disagree. We've got a Volt still under warranty, and we are selling it as soon as we can.

There is a class action suit in the works against GM. They manufactured those vehicles for years using defective battery energy control modules. Ours has been in the shop for a few weeks now, and we'll be waiting probably another 2 months for the part. Some people have been waiting almost a year now. The car is too dangerous to drive as is. And once the battery goes, the cost to replace it will be around $16 grand (the quote we were given last week). And you can't just drive it on gas alone, even tho it's a plug in hybrid and has an 8 gallon tank. If we had a 2012 Volt, it would cost $30k to replace the battery. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/chevy-volt-battery-invoice/

The other downside with a plug in hybrid is that there are so few technicians trained to work on those cars. Our Chevy dealer has 1.

[brush]

17. Sorry, you seem to have bought the wrong hybrid.

See post 2. Due diligence is important.

But what's up? You gushed about your hybrid in post 5 then contradict yourself in post 11.

Can't make up your mind?

[Native]

22. Gushing? I simply mentioned how much we were paying per kwh.

That's what the OP was about.

[brush]

23. Did you see post 2?

[Native]

25. Yes. We both have hybrids. I'm not following you. As I said, I simply commented

on what we are paying to charge it.

[Martin68]

68. I have a friend whose Tesla was damaged when somebody sideswiped him in a parking lot. Turns

out you can't just take a Tesla to your favorite body shop. It also takes ages to get the parts. In summary, it's a lot more time-consuming to have repairs done when you're in an accident whether it's your fault or not. Does anyone here know if the same is true of GM and Ford, and Toyota.

[bucolic_frolic]

3. Cost-benefit analyses are complex

We all thought it wouldn't be this way, but dig deeper and see what you get.

[apnu]

57. Yes. Comments here show how confused people are.

We don't know the methodology used in the report. Are they comparing only the cost to "fuel" ICE and EV?

What kind of driving are they considering? There is a big difference between local errand driving, commuting to work, and long distance driving.

As noted, EVs can be charged at home, for a lower cost, than EV stations. I think many in this thread are missing that.

Also, not mentioned, is that EVs are new, so actual maintenance costs are not well known, compared to ICE that have hundreds of years of data.

As my high school "general business" teacher told me: In a capitalist system, any new technology will be expensive at the beginning until adoption and competition makes that technology cheaply affordable to the middle and lower classes. Her example was the VCR, and then we got a history lesson about that, this was in 1989, all of us had cheap VCRs at home.

So the number of EV makers matters. Also the number of EV charging stations and companies providing that service matter.

Yes, it is very complicated to analyze the costs of EV vs ICE, and then throw that out for the masses to digest.

[sl8]

59. From the AEG link in the article:

Gas-Powered Cars Cheaper to Fuel Than Electric in Late 2022

[...]

Approach

Anderson Economic Group calculates all four categories of costs for fueling EVs and ICE vehicles
across benchmarks representing real-world U.S. driving conditions, including:

1. The cost of underlying energy (gas, diesel, electric)
2. State excise taxes charged for road maintenance
3. The cost to operate a pump or charger
4. The cost to drive to a fueling station (deadhead miles)

All use cases reflect 12,000 miles/year, with the cost of residential charging equipment amortized
over five years. Calculations are based on energy prices and taxes in the state of Michigan. Benchmarks
for ICE vehicle drivers assume the use of commercial gas stations. For EV drivers, we consider both
drivers who routinely charge at home and those who rely primarily on commercial chargers.

[...]

[apnu]

60. I missed that, thanks for the detail, confirms what I was saying.

That AEG had a specific question to look at. Maintenance isn't factored in, which many are talking about in this thread.

Also others mention energy collectives in some areas of the US. The price per kw varies wildly to the US consumer, gas, less so, but does vary.

[brush]

4. On IC cars oil, trans fluid, oil changes etc...

should be factored in. Thanks for the info.

EC cars still seem to be the future once the big three discontinue EC manufacturing , which will chance Tesla future.

[Meadowoak]

7. I call Bullshit.

[CentralMass]

21. Yes.

[Martin68]

26. I do, too. Particularly when you factor in maintenance. Combustion engines have too many moving

parts. They wear down and must be replaced on a regular basis.

[newdayneeded]

53. Aren't the batteries 5 or 6k in an EV

to replace?

[Liberal In Texas]

56. My battery is warranted for 10 years/100,000 miles.

If it fails in that time, no cost to me.

And it'll probably go longer than that, if I still own car, as since the pandemic I'm not putting that many miles on it.

[tinrobot]

29. Agreed our EV costs way less per mile than the ICE

The EV costs about $16 for a full charge, which gives us 250 miles of range

The ICE gets around 25mpg, so 250 miles takes 10 gallons. At California prices of $4-5/gal, that's $40-50. Even at cheaper out of state prices, it would still be more.

[Bengus81]

55. Yep...reads like total BS

Some people here need to chime in about how much Kwh it takes to charge their vehicle and the range.

I just recently did a trip to KC and back (400 miles) in my 22 mpg car. It cost 58.00 at the fuel prices here. Our Kwh rate is 0.16 when all taxes and BS are figured in.

[Meadowoak]

58. My electric rate is 8 cents per kWh in KY, compared to $3.19

Per gallon of gasoline.

[tinrobot]

69. Pretty easy to do the math

A typical EV gets approx 3 miles/kwh.

So, a 400 mile trip requires 133.3 kwh.

At 0.16 per kwh, that's $21.33

A Chevy Bolt or a Tesla might get upwards of 4 miles/kwh, an F150 gets about 2 miles/kwh, so lots of variation. But all would be still be cheaper.

[JCMach1]

61. Your BS meter is correct. My Volt goes through about $20 of electricity

Per month.

Their math is screwy somewhere.
.

[Tikki]

8. Wouldn't this depend on how much you pay for a gallon of gasoline and...

your EV charging arrangement.

The faster you go in either a gasoline vehicle or a EV the more gas and electricity you will use per mile.

Tikki

[Ellipsis]

9. Well that'll change. They do have solar chargers now.

I'm sure that's expensive too if you don't already have an panels and an inverter.

[Initech]

10. The cars are more expensive too.

A Lucid Air or a Rivian R1S run $90K minimum and that's before you start adding options. Even less expensive models like the Kia EV6, Audi E-Tron, and the Ford Mustang Mach E run between $45k - $70k. So yeah it makes sense to me.

[Native]

20. And the dealers are adding on thousands on top of the MSRP.

We were checking out the Hyundai Ionic. The one we were looking at had just sold for $11k over MSRP. When we looked into the Chevy Bolts, they wanted $5,000 over MSRP. It's a supply and demand thing.

One of the guys at our Subaru dealer was like, "How are these people getting these cars financed?" And that Ionic? It doesn't even qualify for the tax credit.

The bullshit dealers were pulling during Covid has gotten much worse when it comes to electric vehicles. As soon as our friend got his Rivian truck, he was offered $135,000 for it (he paid about 70k for it).

Did you guys know that all the limitations they are putting on the tax credit for consumers don't apply to commercial purchases? All EVs qualify if they're purchased for commercial purposes. It doesn't matter where they are assembled. Our government supposedly allowed this exception because so many people lease cars now. But I for one am not expecting those savings to be passed down to the consumer. I hope I'm proven wrong tho and we see some heavy competition drive down leasing costs in a year or two when supply picks up.

[CentralMass]

27. These $90k- 100k 9,000lb pigs are not the way to go.

Last edited Sat Jan 28, 2023, 08:00 PM - Edit history (1)

There need to be a shift in the way we think and behave when it come to our daily transportation..
This company Aptera has a revolutionary design. The big behemoth EV trucks require about 700mw/mile - 800mW/mile to charge vs 100 mW/mile for the Apters
Their batteries alone weigh more then the Aptera. The Aptera also has 700W of solar built in that can give you as nuch as 40 miles of charge a day. A lot of driver might not even have to plug in charge that often.

[doc03]

31. Looks like a death trap. nt

[Initech]

37. What is that thing????

It looks like something out of a weird science fiction movie.

[CentralMass]

40. That maybe 😂 it an extremely aerodynamic two set EV vehicle

that a company called Aptera is trying to bring to the market. It has a carbon fiber composite body, 700watts of built in solar panels and 4 battery options. 250 mile. 400 mile. 600 mile, and1K miles.
The built in solar can provide up to 40 miles of charge per day.

It uses electric wheel motors and the aed version will do 0 to 60 on about 4 seconds and has to speed of 100mph.

[EX500rider]

63. Jay Leno had it on his show:

&t=1574s

[CentralMass]

65. +1

[tinrobot]

34. A Chevy Bolt costs less than $30k new.

Even less with incentives.

The Lucid is a luxury vehicle with a huge battery. Of course it will cost more.

[madville]

12. Road taxes will increase for EV users also

Washington State is running a voluntary pilot program with a 2.5 cent per mile EV and hybrid road tax currently, experimenting with reporting methods.

So say the cost to operate an EV is $11.60 per 100 miles like in the article, adding 2.5 cents per mile would make it $14.10 per 100 miles.

ICE vehicle pay their road taxes in the price of gas so many states are now looking at how to get EV’s and hybrids to pay their “fair share”.

[cutroot]

13. I can make my own electricity in my backyard

I can’t make gasoline

[NickB79]

15. With the right equipment, sure. But then, you can make biofuels in your backyard too

If an illiterate hillbilly can build a still cranking out 180 proof moonshine, you can make your own ethanol

[jmowreader]

32. Biodiesel is even easier

[ProfessorGAC]

52. Not If You Care About Toxic Emissions

Getting total glycerides & free gylcerine down to the point where acrolein emissions approach zero is not that simple without the right equipment or generating substantial wastewater load.
The toxicity of the wastewater is a significantly greater concern if using recovered oils (like used fryer oil) as the raw material.
The ease of making biodiesel at a level that meets US EPA & API standards is greatly overstated.

[cutroot]

41. At least until the revenuers shut me down

[doc03]

14. Can a hybrid save me money? Comparing a 2023 Toyota RAV4 Hybrid XLE

to a 2023 Toyota RAV4 NON-Hybrid XLE. The Hybrid costs $1350 more and considering the savings with the Hybrid
it takes 3.2 years to break even. This does not count the $400 extra registration in 4 years in my state Ohio.




https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybridCompare.jsp

[progressoid]

19. That's an interesting website.

The 2023 Ford Escape ST-Line Hybrid FWD -vs- 2023 Ford Escape FWD SE takes 8.9 years to pay off.

Whereas the 2023 Kia Sorento Hybrid EX FWD -vs- 2023 Kia Sorento FWD EX only take 1.1 yrs to pay off.

Quite a difference.

[doc03]

30. It doesn't consider resale value or insurance. I don't know what kind of resale value they have.

I don't figure it is that good at least in this area. From what I hear batteries can cost thousands.
I wouldn't buy a used one. Do the dealers have qualified mechanics? In an accident EMTs have to know
what they are doing they could get killed from electrical shock. Insurance?

If I bought an EV I would have to make major changes in my electric service that could cost thousands. I don't know of any
charging stations locally. I have seen them in larger cities like Pittsburgh and Columbus but they haven't made it to rural areas.

[EmeraldCoaster]

16. propaganda

please

[EmeraldCoaster]

18. its 10 cents to the dollar

WTF

[MyOwnPeace]

24. It is going to get NASTY!

The owners of the blacksmith shops and horse & buggy sales businesses were not happy when the govt. started using tax money to actually 'pave' roads.
And the RAILROAD MAGNATES did "NOT LIKE IKE" when he had the government pay for super-highways (Interstate System) so that people could drive-&-arrive without having to buy a ticket from the railroads. The loss of income from that led to the collapse of many of the rail empires.
So now we're seeing the battle between gas-vs-electric. Each has their own supply system and each has a vested interest in surviving - if not GROWING! Who will the government support/aid - petroleum or technology/electric?
Truth is, it's going to take tons of POLITICAL COURAGE to lead the country forward - and POLITICAL COURAGE has become a 'LONG-LOST' item in our government.

[werdna]

28. Notice how the report neglected to include -

> the cost of ecological cleanup from oil spills, improper handling of by products, exhaust fumes
> the increased cost of healthcare for production workers and transporters

which are tied to ICE usage.

[airplaneman]

35. You forgot to add the cost of planetary omnicide due to climate change. n/t.

[CentralMass]

33. I think the article is bullshit.

There are some Electrify America charging stations up the street from me. Their members price is $0.31kw/hr. A Chevrolet Bolt EV take (28.1 kWh/100 miles).

I'm on my phone so I'll quote things.

A related link https://evadept.com/calc/chevy-bolt-charging-cost-calculator

At an electricity rate of $0.15kW/hr current average in oregon) to charge a 22 Chevy Bolt from 20% charge level to 80% ( it is recommended that you stay between 20% and 80% for daily driving) it would add 142 miles of charge to your battery and cost $5.94 .
What mileage would an equivilent gas car get ? Lets be generous and say 35mi/gal.
142/35=4gals x $3.80/gal = $15.2 for 142 miles if gas. 2.6 times more then to charge the Bolt.

At the Electrify America charging stations up the street they are charging double for electricity $0.31kw/hr. So it would cost $12.28 to get the 142 miles of charge. Still 1.24 time cheaper then the gas equivilent.

[Liberal In Texas]

36. What nonsense.

How many oil changes do EVs have? How many times do the radiators have to be flushed?
Oh, that's right never.

I have not personally noticed higher electrical costs when charging my car at home from when I had a gas guzzling TrailBlazer.

[fishwax]

38. Sure, if you factor in expenses that EV drivers don't actually have to deal with

I have a plug-in hybrid rather than a full EV, so my experience is a little bit different, but I also know plenty of people who use EVs under similar circumstances. I usually charge for free at my place of employment (I have to pay an annual parking fee, but would have to do that whether I used the chargers or not.)

That aside, these paragraphs make it clear the numbers in the study are skewed:

There were several factors AEG used in determining that owning an electric vehicle was more expensive, like home charging equipment costs, road taxes and deadhead miles. ICE-powered car owners have gas purchases taxed to fund road construction and maintenance. While EV owners don’t pay a gas tax, some states have introduced an additional EV registration fee to compensate.

The massive increase in the report for charging station users versus home chargers is accounted for by the deadhead miles to reach stations and the opportunity cost of waiting for vehicles to charge at stations. The difference highlights the lackluster coverage for electric vehicle charging infrastructure across the United States.

Home charging equipment? You can literally plug your EV into a standard outlet. Most people that I know of don't bother with the fast charging equipment at home, because there is no need for speed when you're parking the car at home. So this seems like a silly addition to the estimated costs.

Road construction? It sounds like they added this to make up for the fuel taxes that EV users don't currently pay.

Deadhead miles? I'm skeptical that most EV users have to drive miles out of their way to find a charging station. As the article points out, more infrastructure in this regard can certainly help (and it is getting better), but with the exception of cross-country trips I doubt this is a huge issue for most EV users.

Edited to add: my plug-in battery gets about 30-35 miles and takes about 2 hours to charge. When I use a public charger it is not infrequently free, but when there is a charge it is usually in the 2.50-4.00 dollar range for a full charge, which would make the cost of 100 miles when just using a charger around 8-12 dollars. The 11.60 per 100 miles is just much, much higher than my experience. I guess I'd have to see the actual study to see how they factor these extra expenses in, but I'm pretty skeptical.

[Bobstandard]

39. If your rooftop solar charges the car...

Want to make a few easy bucks? Create blog and social media posts that push the oil industry's talking points. Better yet, make up some absurd talking points that benefit the industry. Next thing you know, the money starts rolling in from oddly named PACs and foundations. With maybe just a little touch NDA attached. Side hustle: Santosing for the oil industry.

[48656c6c6f20]

42. Henry Ford the anti-semite and conspiracy loon

Made cars affordable for the masses.
We need a person that can do that without the horrible qualities Ford had. So that rules Eloon out.
So until then it's a luxury item that only elitist and well to do can own.
There isn't going to be anyone to do it because it's easier to make a profit off people that can afford 100000 dollar cost of ownership.
This ain't going anywhere soon.

[MissB]

43. Nah. I pay about $5 for 100 miles

I can (and do) track my costs on my ChargePoint charger. I update the cost on my app, and the app keeps track of my charging costs. For January, I’ve added about $27 to my electric bill to charge my car.

It is my in-town car. My costs would be higher if I used the car on trips that required me to use a fast charging station.

No oil changes. Ever.

[Meadowoak]

48. So, roughly $1 per day?

[MissB]

49. Yes.

I work remotely, so no commuting. I’d be able to charge for free at work.

[sl8]

44. Also, the report says that luxury EVs are still cheaper to fuel than their ICE counterparts. nt

[LiberalFighter]

45. And maintenance costs?

[MissB]

50. Minimal

Battery eventually.

[moniss]

46. A report with an agenda behind it

and questionable methodology. This kind of garbage gets spread around out there for the purposes of disinformation to support an agenda. As an example I watched, after years of abstaining, the latest show by Bill Maher. What a horse's backside this guy is. He was bashing energy conservation and recycling efforts by citing figures with no attribution. The fist one was that over the last many decades we have only decreased the percentage of electricity generated by coal by 1%. Says who and by what methodology? His next a**hole move was to knock recycling of plastics by stating we only use 5% of what is recycled. Again no attribution etc. and his basic take was that it was useless and he claimed it was useless to segregate waste since it "all" is going to the same place and he reinforced it with pictures of landfill. Of course even if his 5% figure is correct he is way too ignorant to understand the huge impact a sudden 5% increase would have on landfills if we ended our efforts. But his program went even further down this road of ignorance.

He then had a segment claiming that college education is way overrated and most jobs can be done by people without a degree. So apparently following in the footsteps of that master of medical science, Aaron Rodgers, it seems that Bill has decided that it would be good for his heart surgeon to be the guy who took a night course while working as a plumber. Or apparently Bill thinks that the solutions to highly technical research in biology etc. are to be found in the minds of people with a GED as their last achievement.

The topper to the whole crappy show was that Bill was couching all of this in the guise of being the realm of elitists and the reason why Dems lose. The last most flabbergasting part was that he surmised that our initiatives in conservation etc. fail because we are all bad selfish people. Based on the wild applause and whooping and screaming of his audience I would dare say that not one of them saw the irony in a man decrying bad selfish behavior in one breath and then supporting that behavior with misleading information in the next. All while suggesting that learning and discovery are overrated.

[mcar]

47. EV just doesn't make sense right now

I've got a little car that gets great gas mileage. Next vehicle will be hybrid.

[leftyladyfrommo]

51. Our gas is back up to $3.19. nt

[pwb]

54. !00 miles is more than I drive almost always so

Electric would work fine for me. As a second car for local trips EVs are great.

[Scrivener7]

62. Well! If the Anderson Economic Group says so, it MUST be true!

Though I will say, I never felt the gas price increases with my little hybrid.

[jalan48]

64. Kinda like when you go camping and the closest place to pee is in a stream near where others are

camping. We're fouling our own nest and rationalizing it even though we know it's leading to the destruction of our planet.

[edhopper]

66. horse puckey

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/10/26/about-that-scary-evs-cost-more-to-fuel-study-not/

And that, folks, is the 100% pure, unadulterated horse puckey you get when you shovel a lot of money at a so-called consulting firm and say, “Create a study that shows EVs cost more than conventional cars” — an outcome-driven hatchet job that confirms the built-in biases of the people who fund such studies in the first place.

[Sympthsical]

67. What if I have solar at home and do most of my charging there?

I'm in the market for a new car at some point in the next two years. Electric is being seriously considered if not favored at this point.

Since 95% of my driving is relatively local (work, shopping, home, and school all within 20 miles of one another), home charging is going to be the overwhelming main source of my use. I'm about 45 miles from both Sacramento and San Francisco, so they're not really a thing either.

I haven't done the cost calculations, but I'm going to once I start seriously shopping. I wouldn't include installing solar in the cost, because we were doing that anyway to get rid of some serious California utility bills.

[Mr.Bill]

71. Have you or do you expect

to have any extended power outages in your area? That could factor into the decision.

[Sympthsical]

72. Not really

Our power is pretty reliable, which is a little insane given PG&E. The solar immunizes us to it for the most part anyway.

And if wildfires burn everything down, well, ok. We'll take my partner's car during the escape.

[friend of a friend]

70. I would like to see all factors for both EV and ICE.

There is the initial purchase, warranty cost and coverage, taxes, gas or electricity, and maintenance for 100,000,150,000, and 200,000 miles. Also what about what building and what using does to the environment.

[hunter]

73. If you own and drive a car your environmental footprint is huge. End of story.

With the human population at eight billion this planet can't support a car for every adult. It doesn't matter how these cars are powered.

If we are truly interested in "saving the world" we will rebuild our cities, turning them into attractive places where car ownership is unnecessary.