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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums'Proud' Gunmaker Figures Out How to Make Massacres Worse
The gun company that made the AR-15-style rifle used to kill 49 people at an Orlando nightclub in 2016 and another four at an Indiana mall this month is now gearing up to mass-produce an even more lethal weapon of war for the civilian market.
SIG Sauer’s new MCX-SPEAR fires bullets with twice the kinetic energy of those from an AR-15. That means double the horrifying force that mangled the victims of the mass shooting in Uvalde, Texas, and left one youngster essentially decapitated.
“It’ll shoot through almost all of the bulletproof vests that are worn by law enforcement in the county right now,” said Ryan Busse, a former firearms company executive who is now a senior policy analyst with the Giffords Law Center and author of Gunfight: My Battle Against the Industry that Radicalized America.
The MCX-SPEAR is the civilian version of the U.S. Army’s NGSW-R (Next Generation Squad Weapon-Rifle), which was created with the express purpose of tearing through enemy body armor.
“This is a weapon that could defeat any body armor, any planned body armor that we know of in the future,” then-Army Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Milley told the Army Times in 2019. “This is a weapon that can go out at ranges that are unknown today.”
Milley had in mind the body armor worn by Russian and Chinese troops. The Army just shrugged when asked this week whether the same could apply to that worn by cops.
“Please, refer your question to Sig Sauer and civilian law enforcement agencies,” a spokesperson for the Army Modernization Team told The Daily Beast.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/sig-sauers-mcx-spear-can-turbocharge-mass-shooters?ref=home
Great. Just great.
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Srkdqltr
(9,037 posts)When a cop is killed with one......... No they won't care as long as they are raking in the money.
I've seen them interviewed on the news after a cop is killed and the look sad but all defensive .
thatdemguy
(615 posts)Btw its about the same power range of most hunting rifles, as well as most wwII rifles.
There are many other semi auto rifles with the same range of power, and lots of them have been around for 80 years.
Xoan
(25,570 posts)brush
(61,033 posts)Grolph_
(149 posts)E=m*c*c
Velocity is in there twice
sarisataka
(22,073 posts)Is designed to stop pistol rounds. An Old-West Era 30-30 will go through it in most cases.
Armor designed to stop rifle rounds is significantly heavier so police only use it in specific circumstances such as SWAT teams
underpants
(193,595 posts)One of the “elite” dealers estimated this week that SIG Sauer had sent out between 2,500 and 5,000 of the weapons—and that they were an instant hit despite the price.
There’s been this huge craze in shooting competitions to become a thousand-yard sniper,” Busse said. “A lot of people want to be that long-range, thousand-yard sniper. Like they literally fantasize about taking some guy out from a mile away, because the gun will shoot a mile. You don’t hear it coming, you don’t see the shooter. The bullet just hits somebody. And this MCX Spear will essentially introduce that kind of capability to the semi-auto AR-15 world. All of a sudden, people will be able to kind of live out their fantasy of becoming a long-range sniper with an AR-15-style gun.”
KS Toronado
(21,689 posts)I'm sure the NRA could care less. 
LokiandMala
(14 posts)But this in no game changer. Bullet drop is 20 feet at 1000 yards with the .277. It’s just another semi auto people killer. Except more expensive. This gun is not new. Just their version of it.
HAB911
(10,027 posts)duckworth969
(970 posts)Make assassination a bit easier for a talented shooter.
HAB911
(10,027 posts)so stated. I would say to them, their little peashooters would be worthless against the 82nd and aircraft and other firepower, and they would invariably counter that guerilla tactics were immune to that. We may find out.
AndyS
(14,559 posts)Regarding some of the supposedly sane ones, he noted, “A lot of people just wanna be Billy Badass. This kinda allows them to be that.”
These are the guys who say they're exempt from statistical evidence because they have better training, situational awareness and aren't (currently) in contentious relationships with domestic partners.
sop
(16,621 posts)is being marketed as a long range precision, or "sniper," weapon. Numerous gun manufacturers have been selling much more powerful "AR-style" rifles, in chamberings designed expressly for long range shooting, for some time. Long range sniper rifles, usually equipped with expensive optics and suppressors, have become the latest tacticool weapon of choice among the rightwing militia crowd. Guys boast these rifles allow them to "reach out and touch someone" at 1000 yards.
Standard AR-15s in .223/5.56 Nato are cheap and popular with disaffected 18-year-olds on a budget, but real men with deep pockets demand weapons capable of doing much more damage at much longer distances. The idea of a bunch of murderous rightwing MAGA terrorists, armed with semi-automatic high-capacity battle rifles, equipped with long range scopes and suppressors, capable of killing targets at hundreds of yards, should scare the shit out of Americans.
>>should scare the shit out of Americans
Thinking that there will be a lot more long range shootings like the one in Las Vegas - not that it cant already happen but just keeps getting worse.
CatWoman
(80,171 posts)
Straw Man
(6,911 posts)As has been discussed above, law enforcement body armor was never intended to stop rifle rounds -- really any rifle rounds except perhaps .22LR plinkers. Military adversaries are more likely to be wearing ballistic plate armor -- hence the development of the new round.
For unarmored targets -- innocent civilians, if you will -- the previous .223 / 5.56 is more than sufficient, as sad experience will confirm. The new round would be advantageous to a perpetrator who intended to shoot it out with SWAT teams responding to the incident. If that is a realistic concern, the round could be banned for civilian use through legislation. Banning military calibers is a practice in some Latin American and European countries.
ZonkerHarris
(25,577 posts)It's the only trickle-down system that actually works.
patphil
(8,411 posts)If you think the Uvalde cops were afraid, imagine how many more people this new weapon will kill, as cops across the country refuse to confront mass murderers carrying these weapons.
We are at war with a insane, determined enemy, that wants to be armed like soldiers, and doesn't care how many people die, just as long as they have their guns.
For them, gun ownership is a sacred right. Gun deaths just validate their need to be armed to the teeth.
The insanity isn't just in the mass murderers, it's in the 10's of millions of gun-crazies out there who can never be satisfied no matter what weapon they own, or how many.
I fear for the future of my country as long as legislatures, both state and federal, and courts allow this to happen.
This new gun should NOT be in the hands of the public!
Amishman
(5,901 posts)While I do own a few guns, I'm far from an expert on this stuff. But from what I see, this is just another semi-automatic assault rifle. There have been guns like this around that used higher power rounds than an AR-15 for decades. I'm not seeing what is new about this.
I know we do have a few members here who are actually experts on this stuff, what am I missing?
Zeitghost
(4,557 posts)It's a semi-auto magazine fed "ARish" firearm that takes larger format cartridges, just like a slew of other semi-auto magazine fed "ARish" firearms that take larger format cartridges have been available at gun stores for decades.
The article is intended to stir up fear and emotion, not educate or have an informed conversation on the subject.
Straw Man
(6,911 posts)... as far as I can see is that it's getting .308-type performance from a smaller, more portable cartridge. Portability was part of the move away from .30-06 for military use in the first place.
Hekate
(99,980 posts)Women and children: duck and cover but it won’t save you from the death cult
IronLionZion
(50,178 posts)
hadEnuf
(3,440 posts)Everyone else, not so much....
IronLionZion
(50,178 posts)without any choice
Timeflyer
(3,495 posts)Evolve Dammit
(21,305 posts)
uponit7771
(93,331 posts)
ancianita
(42,383 posts)When the US Military enters, snipers can be wiped out.
Besides direct observation, defending forces can use other techniques.
These include calculating the trajectory of a bullet by triangulation. Traditionally, triangulation of a sniper's position was done manually, though radar-based technology has recently become available. Once located, the defenders can attempt to approach the sniper from cover and overwhelm them.
The United States military is funding a project known as RedOwl (Robot Enhanced Detection Outpost With Lasers), which uses laser and acoustic sensors to determine the exact direction from which a sniper round has been fired.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper#Targeting,_tactics,_and_techniques
housecat
(3,138 posts)ancianita
(42,383 posts)I posted, however, because there's still an ex-military sniper contingent in the general population, and a number of past sniper shootings at civvies in the U.S.
Any way they can kill Americans and up their chances of helping christo-fascist minority rule be established, right?
The DOJ has apprehended and charged 19 gun owners in Oath Keepers, a few hundred more (unlikely to pass future gun purchase background checks) from the Jan 6 crowd, and Operation North Star picked up over 1,500 outstanding fugitives, which can get the word out about the scope and sweep of Biden's DOJ...
My overall point was that gunhumpers need to be warned, and known in all their iterations.
housecat
(3,138 posts)housecat
(3,138 posts)ancianita
(42,383 posts)housecat
(3,138 posts)ancianita
(42,383 posts)
MarineCombatEngineer
(16,347 posts)housecat
(3,138 posts)MarineCombatEngineer
(16,347 posts)send to where they will do some actual good defending against the Russian invaders.
housecat
(3,138 posts)ancianita
(42,383 posts)housecat
(3,138 posts)Russians? "Are you sure you know whose side they're on" What does that mean? I think we are saying the same thing, and I just want to be sure. Thanks
ancianita
(42,383 posts)
housecat
(3,138 posts)housecat
(3,138 posts)dchill
(42,660 posts)Why is that even a thing? Other than, of course, huge profits for death merchants.
housecat
(3,138 posts)flying_wahini
(8,210 posts)
Initech
(106,676 posts)
Bettie
(19,004 posts)kids off your lawn.
SYFROYH
(34,212 posts)They asked manufacturers to submit rounds that farther flatter and with more impact.
They selected the 6.8x51 rounds (aka as the .227 SIG FURY). This round doesn't fit in an AR/M-16 magwell so a new rifle platform (much inspired by the AR-15) was developed.
https://www.bearcreekarsenal.com/blog/277-sig-fury-6-8-51-guide.html
So take note: One can no longer genuinely call a semi-automatic AR-15 a weapon of war.
tosh
(4,453 posts)that weapons developed for, and contracted FOR PURCHASE BY, our military, can NOT BE SOLD or COPIED FOR SALE TO the public???
How is it that they can get these Hyde amendment things going to prohibit OUR taxpayer dollars from aiding Women’s healthcare? We need similar for military arms!
ancianita
(42,383 posts)Last edited Thu Jul 21, 2022, 08:57 AM - Edit history (1)
ANYway, just because they're designed for military purchase and use, doesn't mean the manufacturers will only stop at that sector.
The ONLY way a ban can hold hard is by forcing gun manufacturers to stop all civilian sales on penalty of corporate dissolution. Which they'd take to the courts, BUT they've got the landmark Sandy Hook court loss going against them. So while they'd fight it they'd likely comply if Homeland got mobilized.
tosh
(4,453 posts)I promise to ponder this. 
Evolve Dammit
(21,305 posts)
Wednesdays
(21,147 posts)For what purpose?
Boomerproud
(9,037 posts)as many people as possible from a sniper's nest. Easy way to get rid of "The Other".
James48
(5,015 posts)The rifles used for deer in this country ( .30-06, .39-30, 7mm-08, .308, etc) all are more powerful than the new Army weapon being fielded. Yes, the 6.8SPC round is more powerful than the 5.56mm round used in the AR-15, but so are the majority of rifle calibers.
It is not a very good argument to frame it as “double the horrifying force of the AR-15” if you are not at least honest enough to point out that any deer rifle has more “horrifying force” as an AR-15.
Examples of force:
5.56mm round of an AR-15= 939 ft pounds of energy @ 100 yards
.30-06 round of a deer rifle= 2,118 ft pounds of energy @ 100 yards.
New army rifle: 6.8SPC= 1,523 ft pounds of energy at 100 yards.
7mm-Rem Mag round of a deer rifle= 2,770 ft pound s of energy at 100 yards.
sl8
(16,927 posts)Last edited Wed Jul 20, 2022, 06:33 PM - Edit history (1)
Think of the new round as a.308 Win., necked down to .277, with a special composite case that can handle 80,000 p.s.i..
James48
(5,015 posts)It shows here that the 6.8 round- called “.277 fury”, is a FMJ 135 grain round and has an energy of 2,267 ft pounds. That’s nearly identical to the .30-06, and lower then the 7mm REM Mag.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.277_Fury
sl8
(16,927 posts)Typically you see .30-06 and 7mm Rem Mag velocities from 24" + barrels.
It's not some magical round, but if the high pressure loads work out, they're definitely out of the .308 / .30-06 class. More like some of the short magnums.
dlk
(13,001 posts)This is a pathology.
Eyeball_Kid
(7,604 posts)Why not? They're weapons of war that can kill numerous people in a very short period of time. IT'S SIMILAR TO ASSAULT RIFLES, and there's no need to buy ammo. And I'd venture a guess that they're cheaper by the pop. Hand grenades and assault rifles essentially do the same thing.
DetroitLegalBeagle
(2,446 posts)Heavily restricted, but legal. No company will sell them to civilians, but you can still make your own legally as long as you do all the ATF destructive device paperwork and comply with storage laws, if your state allows possession of them. Years ago there was an article that from Florida that the ATF said there were 6000 registered hand grenades, but I don't remember if that was within Florida itself or nationwide. I'd guess nationwide as storage requirements and the lack of any manufacturer willing to sell them to civilians would heavily limit their availability.
sop
(16,621 posts)Aggressively representing the economic interests of the American domestic arms industry, the NRA is constantly pushing to make it legal to sell anything and everything to the public. And anything those cool military special ops guys get to use in battle, America's rightwing extremist gun owners immediately have to buy.
Suppressors are a big thing now; more and more firearms are being sold with threaded barrels to accept them. They're being heavily marketed to hunters and recreational shooters as a "socially responsible" way to reduce noise pollution. They require paperwork and a fee to acquire now, but soon they'll be just another readily available gun accessory. Fully automatic weapons and explosive devices won't be far off if the GOP regains control.
jmowreader
(52,729 posts)There is a Second Amendment Absolutist crowd who believes every weapon, no matter how ridiculous, should be legal for civilians to own with no restrictions whatsoever.
And on this I can thoroughly agree. Imagine what would happen if about two dozen M109 self propelled howitzers fell into the hands of liberals. Within 72 hours every GOP office, hard-right church, militia training ground and gun store in the region would be GONE! And while this is obvious sarcasm, let us just say that one should be careful of what he wishes for.
Kaleva
(40,030 posts)The AR-10, the big brother of the AR15, is chambered to fire rounds that can easily defeat most body armor and these rounds have long been used in war and to take down big game like moose, elk, bear, bison, water buffalo and others.
Lucid Dreamer
(589 posts)None of this hardware means much really.
It's the sick minds in society that are mass shooters, and they could choose from weapons available in WW1 and still create havoc.
This is all a distraction from the rightful focus which should be ON THE PEOPLE that are the shooters.
They are not all right-wingers or lefties or red or blue or white or black.
But looking back, most of the mass shooters had identifiable traits that people would say, "Oh, you know there was some odd behavior I noticed years ago.
One more super-weapon isn't a game changer. One more sicko is.
James48
(5,015 posts)We need graduated weapons licensure.
Age 18: + 40 hours + more training = black powder rifle.
Age 21, + 3 years of experience + more training = bolt action .22LR
Age 25, + 2 more years, + more training and a Psyc eval, social media review= center fire bolt, pump, and lever action.
Age 30, + 2 more years of experience+ training = Semi-auto center-fire.
Age 40+ 2 more years of experience= Full Auto license for Class III weapons.
Jilly_in_VA
(13,348 posts)being in favor of "political violence" and you'll see why this could be important. Apparently a lot of you are not making the connection here.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)...of the rifle cartridge power spectrum and you're horrified you discover what others have known for years. Specifically, that AR-15s and other semiautomatic rifle designs can be deigned to fire other ammunition types.
You've been told for years about how super-high-powered the.223 Rem cartridge is. Well, it's not. It's about 4x as powerful as a 9mm pistol bullet, or about half the power of common rifle cartridges used to take deer.
NickB79
(20,135 posts)AR-10's have been around for 50+ years.
The .308 Winchester/7.62x51 has been around for 70 years.
The new Sig Sauer .277 Fury, based off the .308, runs a 135 gr bullet at 3100 fps in the new military M5 rifle
Hot .308 loads run a 110-120 gr bullet at 3200 fps from an off the shelf, $1000 AR-10.
It's a round designed with one goal: to punch through Russian and Chinese next-generation ceramic armor that will currently stop 5.56mm bullets.
Hell, given how strong the bullet has to be constructed to do this (heavy jacket, steel core) it would likely be LESS lethal than a 5.56mm bullet. A FMJ 5.56mm tumbles and fragments internally, while a .277 or .308 punches a hole through and through.
Kaleva
(40,030 posts)passing through a body turns surrounding organs to mush.
As for lethality, one wouldn't hunt large game with a gun chambered for the 5.56mm and there's debate if it's powerful enough for deer.
Torchlight
(5,964 posts)Gotta figure out a new way to sell those but(t)s to a newer, younger, hipper crowd to better maintain their gawd-given profit margins at the expense of good taste and good faith. Dangle some shiny, branding-words in front of the undiscerning, and their Christmas wishes write themselves,