My Experience with Military Intelligence Was Over 50 Years Ago,

[MineralMan]

Last edited Fri Mar 11, 2022, 07:34 PM - Edit history (1)

so I have no information on the current state of things at all.

However, what I do know is that the principle of "need to know" is still at the heart of military intelligence.

I do not have a "need to know" the details of what the USA or NATO is doing or planning to do to help Ukraine. None of those reading this post have that "need to know," either.

The Russians would "like to know," but they aren't going to get that information from public sources here in the USA.

We'd all "like to know," but if we know, everyone would know.

For a few years, I worked with Top Secret information every day. I even generated some of it, and analyzed a lot more of it. In most cases, I was part of a very, very small number of people who ever saw that information. Just a few had that "need to know."

Some of what I did is no longer classified. Some of it still is. Oddly enough, I have no idea which is which, so I treat it all as if it were still on a "need to know" basis.

So, I understand completely why we're all in the dark about the details of our actions, plans, and strategic analysis of what exactly is going on in Ukraine and an even broader area. I also understand that there are teams of people whose jobs it is to analyze information and evaluate strategies that might be in play. I have no idea what they're all doing and talking about.

Neither does anyone else who is outside of those teams.

That's how it must be. There is no alternative.

[Hekate]

1. Why do you always talk such uncommon sense, Mineral Man?

[MineralMan]

2. I can do no other.

And, if you understand that allusion, you must be Lutheran.

[Hekate]

4. Heh. I actually had a splendid history professor in my first year of college. He made it live.

Hier stehe, Ich kann nicht ein anders!

[MineralMan]

6. Yeah, I figured you know that one.

As much as I have problems with Luther, imagining him standing and saying that always gives me goosebumps.

[relayerbob]

3. 100% agreed

We only know the tip of the iceberg. That Biden keeps dropping intelligence output is code to the Russians … we’ve broken your encrypted comms, we know everything you are doing.

[everyonematters]

5. I just hope they have a way to get supplies to those surrounded cities

so that they don't starve to death.

[MineralMan]

8. Yes, I hope so, too.

[Walleye]

7. Agreed. But selective declassification of what we know about Russia has helped us keep

The allies together and public opinion on our side. The instinct is to keep intelligence secret, as it should be, however in these days of conspiracy theories and powerful propaganda, the truth has got to pull its pants up and get around the world before the lie does. But you are absolutely right that we should not know exactly what strategy is being discussed at the higher levels.And I don’t really wanna know that

[MineralMan]

10. Oh, there is sharing among allies, for sure.

It's essential.

[Walleye]

11. Yes. I am slightly encouraged by the way they are working together, seemingly

[lagomorph777]

9. I'm actually happy that I'm confused about what we are / are not doing.

That's a good thing.

I've been in that world too. Fortunately, I can't even remember most of the classified stuff (honestly, it was boring). But I would treat it carefully if I could remember it.

[marie999]

12. Mine ended 55 years ago and like you it was before the end of the Soviet Union.

I do have a question for you. Every time I try to get my military records I get a single document that states my military records are flagged because I worked with special intelligence. Do you know if we can ever get our records? My DD-214 does state I was a Russian linguist and worked for the 528th Military Intelligence Company, but that doesn't really say anything. I have my medical records because I am service-connected disabled.

[MineralMan]

14. I've never needed anything but my DD-214.

If the records are flagged, probably you will never be able to get them. I was a Russian linguist, too, in the USAF. As you say, that information is on the DD-214. However there's no information about where I was stationed on there. There is a note about a foreign travel restriction on it, though. That expired long ago, though, so I never have paid any attention to it, and didn't travel before it expired.

The missions, in general, of the places we were all stationed has been declassified, but not the specifics. There are a couple of books out there that are more or less accurate about what we were all up to, but they're general, as well.

For myself, I know that most people I know would be bored to tears with details of what I was doing, so nothing is lost by not saying much about it. I tell people that I was a Russian linguist stationed at a small, remote USAF base on the Black Sea coast in Turkey. Clever people can pretty much guess why I was there, and none of that information is classified. But, that's where it stops.

I'm sure hearing about some familiar places these days, though.

[marie999]

15. I have been able to tell them about one document I translated.

It was an unclassified scientific Russian document, for the Department of Agriculture I was told, about Penicularia of Rice Crops. I guess if I tell my family about that they won't ask me any more questions.

[MineralMan]

16. LOL! I don't have one like that.

I can't think of anything I worked with that I could talk about.

I did translate a book of poetry, though, by a Russian immigrant poet, after I left the USAF. Wonderful old man and a pretty good poet. I met him after reading a short novel he wrote in Russian. I was trying to keep my language skills alive. Anyway, I was living near where he lived, so we met and he asked if I could help him with his book of poetry. I did. We had many discussions about how to make English poetry from Russian poetry. I think we did a good job, too.

My Russian is very limited now. I don't use it, and haven't for decades. If I have some time, I can communicate with Russian speakers, but I have to stop and think before speaking now. It's there in my brain, but I don't have instant access to it. My accent is still good, though.

[electric_blue68]

37. Interesting stuff. In one parallel Earth I might have been a Russian linguist...

Last edited Fri Mar 11, 2022, 09:07 PM - Edit history (1)

In '67 I was in JHS in NYC. I was in gifted/talented in grade school. We'd had a French teacher who I didn't like.

So I didn't want to take French in JHS, nor Spanish. But, ah, we had a third option...


Russian.

My dad was 1st Gen Ukrainian-American. I thought (English was his first language) well I could try talking to him.
I didn't really yet know about the emnity between Ukrainians, and the Soviet Govt.
Despite the 3 "genders", and a whole new Cyrillic Alphabet I got an 85. 👍

However the specialized HS (Music, Art) I went to didn't have it while my local HS did. So that was the end of that. And, boy, did I struggle through Spanish!

[sdfernando]

13. I know the old joke is that military intelligence is an oxymoron but that really is just a joke.

My Dad at one time just before retirement reviewed quite a bit of intel when he as attached to CINCPAC. He never spoke to us kids about it, even to this day and he has beed retired for 45 years.

[MineralMan]

17. Yeah, we took it all pretty seriously.

I still communicate with some people who were at the base in Turkey where I was stationed, and elsewhere. That's about the only time that I chat about what we were doing, but even then it's all pretty general conversation, rather than details. More about the experience than the work.

I've never been completely sure what the value was of what I was doing. I suppose it was all of some use, but it's hard to define, really.

I was low-level person, to say the least, but smart enough to figure out a good deal about it, by inference. I also had a unique and unusual skill that got me moved around where that skill was needed, so I learned from that, too. It was interesting, for sure, but not interesting enough for me to make a career of it. I'm not career military or intelligence material, I think.

[sdfernando]

28. Dad was career army but not intelligence per se...

Started as a private (drafted in WWII). Left and then went back in as an officer. Artillery, went to Korea and Vietnam. Served in many differnt areas besides artillery. Being bilingual was of course a great asset.

[nitpicker]

18. In my day

DO I need to know this?

What if I complied something and a breach occurred?

There were things much more serious than accidentally finding (then) that a lot of the 30+ year enlisted were working as top cooks.

[alfredo]

19. Keep the circle small

[MineralMan]

26. Exactly!

[alfredo]

41. USASA 65-69

[MineralMan]

42. Same years USAFSS.

[alfredo]

43. Ever pass through Asmara

[MineralMan]

44. Nope.

Not that I remember.

[alfredo]

45. Lovely city. Google it.

4th USASAFS Kagnew

[MineralMan]

46. I never went in that direction from Samsun. Looks like it's located

in a great spot. I missed a lot of Turkey in my explorations, for sure.

[alfredo]

47. Sinop would have been my base if sent to Turkey.

[MineralMan]

48. Yup. That's where the Army was.

I never went there, either.

I traveled around quite a bit, but all radiating out from Samsun and toward places that were Turkish. I already saw plenty of American guys every day, I guess.

[alfredo]

50. I have a name that ends in ian, an indicator of Armenian origin.

One of the points of pride in Sinop is the Armenian graveyard.

[MineralMan]

51. That's a very touchy issue in Turkey and in the Armenian community.

I avoided discussing any of that while I was stationed there.

[alfredo]

52. That was why I was happy to get Kagnew Station. Stayed there for three years.

[greblach]

20. Exactly!

There was a news report today about help that Turkey is doing, and I thought how is this helping to report it...irresponsible...

[gab13by13]

21. Excellent thread,

a perfect example is the publicity that was given the jets that Poland was going to give Ukraine. Loose lips sink jets.

I'm sure that NATO is giving Ukraine daily intelligence. The UK is tracking locations of Russian planes.

Where president Biden is brilliant is his getting ahead of Putin by releasing to the public false flag operations that Russia is planning, like the chemical warfare claims.

You are spot on MM, the public doesn't need to know the details, if Ukraine ends up possessing a lot of drones, so be it.

Also, another reason your thread is spot on, we don't know all that is going on, so the people who are saying we should be doing more are just repeating GQP campaign talking points. We just gave Ukraine's military more money than its yearly budget and 30 members of the Putin Party (GQP) voted against it.

Good thread.

[MineralMan]

27. Thanks.

[erronis]

22. Some of the projects I worked on produced reports that I couldn't see after submittal.

TS, compartmentalized, need-to-know.

Also, the various intelligence and defense agencies played off against each other. Sometimes improving the results because of the inherent competition. Of course there is a lot of over-spend in many of these cases.

[MineralMan]

30. Yeah, me too.

Small groups feeding parts of things to another small group that creates the report.

People don't understand how that works very well. Only the end-user of the report gets the entire picture. That's how it works.

A lot of times, of course, you had a pretty good idea of what was going to be in the final report. I mean, it wasn't rocket science, unless it was, of course.

[ChazII]

49. +1

Thank you, MineralMan for helping to educate me. My dad served in the army reserve/

[BlueIdaho]

23. Anything we citizens can know Putin could know.

The safety and security of NATO and Ukrainian forces depends on the chain of command and the need to know. As much as it might comfort us to know more, now is not the time.

[MineralMan]

31. Yes. Of course, sometimes things that appear to be true

aren't really true, for just that reason. You just never know.

[orwell]

24. Thanks for a bit of sanity

...in an increasingly insane world.

[bluboid]

25. I'll second that motion...

sanity is always good... especially in a war.

[MineralMan]

32. I try to increase the sanity all the time.

It's important.

[Silver Gaia]

29. Great thread!

Much needed...

[MineralMan]

33. Thanks so much!

[niyad]

34. Exactly.

[hay rick]

35. I had an intelligence classification 50+ years ago.

I remember it as being Top Secret, but I could be wrong. I do remember that it took several weeks before I could handle certain documents. The classification was for proofreading documents coming from the Naval Electronics Lab. The impenetrable layer of security resided in the fact that the meat of the documents was pages and pages of equations which I didn't understand.

[Warpy]

36. Need to know or not, our intelligence apparatus has been caught flat footed more than once

The most egregious case was when they were surprised by the sudden collapse of the USSR. Well, the collapse wasn't sudden and I'm sure the worker bees did their jobs well and duly reported all the signs of imminent collapse, but the King Bees all needed the Cold War to keep their jobs and sat on the information, hoping it was untrue.

So I have a deep cynicism regarding intelligence agencies, no matter what country has them. I'm convinced most of the stuff buried under layers of "need to know" is stuff meant to cover a lot of fat asses who were either afraid to tell some high placed honchos things he didn't want to hear or whose sheer incompetence buried them.

So not only are we in the dark, so are most heads of state.

Our warning to the world, together with the UK, that this invasion was imminent was unusual. The world's dismissal of it as alarmist was business as usual.

[MineralMan]

53. Oh, the intelligence agencies were not surprised by the collapse

of the Soviet Union at all. They told the political folks, too. The IC doesn't act on intelligence; it just supplies it to the politicos, who do with it what they will.

I was a low level shlub, but even I could see it coming as far back as the late 60s. Many things were not going well for the Soviets, even then.

[Warpy]

55. True, through interpreters in both Congress and the White House

who boil it all down into a more organized form that politicos can understand.

They were still caught flatfooted.

Part of the problem was that it was such a closed system. Those do tend to collapse with little warning. What caught the CIA by surprise is that a rapid collapse at the top led to an abandonment of enforcement at the borders, a collective "you're on your own" for eastern Europe and central Asia. All of a sudden, people were on the Berlin Wall with pickaxes and sledge hammers and nary a cop nor Stasi goon was to be seen and that's the part that had politicos and spooks alike standing with their mouths hanging open.

I think they learned their lesson, we weren't caught flatfooted this time. We were just slow to respond, reactive instead of proactive.

[boston bean]

38. We talk about what we do know and our opinions regarding what is we know.

Not sure what this post is about other than don’t question, others know, there is no need for you to know or question because how could you, if you don’t know what they know.

Sorry. I’m gonna question even if I don’t have access to super top secret data.

My trust runs only so deep.

[MineralMan]

39. OK...

[boston bean]

40. Thank you. It has served me well my entire life.

There have been so many intelligence blunders. Some pretty damn obvious before we paid the price.

Planes crashing into the twin towers for one.

[electric_blue68]

56. Wait... wasn't it the fact that W/his peeps ignored certain warning memos?...

And also declined intelligence info from the Clinton Admin?

[boston bean]

57. Read the 911 report.

[alfredo]

54. As a veteran of MI, I understand the visceral reaction when

Speaking of those years. There’s stuff that has been declassified and I still won’t talk about it, except for one notorious exception because one nation was trying to defame the man that blew the whistle on them.